manhours for front suspension rebuild?

-
ok, I priced all the pieces that come in the PST kit on rock auto.
I looked at both the best "Ray Bestos Pro" pieces and the cheep moog pieces, total comes from 534 to 320 so I could be saving or spending about 100 more than the 439 for the PST kit.

So now the question is: what parts are maybe worth spending extra on and getting the potentially higher quality parts for? are should I or should I not spend extra for the Ray Bestos parts?...

also I'm not sure about how many of the following I need
lower control arm bushings
outer tie rod ends
inner tie rod ends

I think its 2 of each of these, is that right?

I havent had experience with raybestos parts, only moog. but i think raybestos parts are not that great....i myself would probably use moog, and get my ball joints from just suspension.

heres a link about the just suspension ball joints, saying they are better than moog, maybe wanna look into getting your balljoints from them...

http://www.cbodydrydock.com/content.php?article.20

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=130166&highlight=moog+ball+joints+worth+price?

yes you will need 2 lower control arm bushings, 2 inner and 2 outer tie rod ends...


do you have the extra cash for a nice quality shock? larger torsion bars? a front sway bar?

also, you can use the larger C-body inner and outer tie rod ends, which will help a little bit in the steering...the A-bodies use a 9/16' tie rod, C-body uses 11/16"...you will have to get the adjusting sleeves too though, which is no problem...

also, what is the condition of your brakes? and are they disc, or drum?
 
A few more things to add to what others have already said;
There are techniques to remove torsion bars without a tool, but as cheap as they are to come by, you really need a torsion bar tool (I made mine), and an upper ball joint socket (they're 3/4" drive by the way) at the very least.
Leaving the upper control arms on the car until you break the upper ball joints loose is usually the easy way. Don't be surprised if you need a length a pipe to extend the leverage on that breaker bar.
My neighbor used vise grips to remove his V8 bars and even though I'm going to show him how to sand out the grooves and gouges with a 4" angle grinder, there's no guarantee they won't fail.
Stock these cars are in dire need of more caster. Moog offset upper bushings are the next best thing to tubular upper control arms for gaining some and a damn sight cheaper.
Although roughly 3/8" taller between the ball joints, the later B body and transverse bar car uprights will interchange, have a stronger spindle, and save a couple of pounds per side. Getting easier to find than the A body stuff, too.
Adapting to the larger (12") rotor is as simple as finding the correct caliper bracket for your style of caliper.
The Factory Service Manual is your friend.
Dick Ross is one of the most knowledable guys out there about the chassis of these cars. Although it hasn't been updated in a while and even if you don't plan on buying any of his stuff, a visit to his website (firmfeel.com) helps you get a feel for how things go together.
It's probably over 10 years old now, but reading Rick Ehrenberg's Disc o tech article (moparaction.com/tech/archive) should be a must.
Ditto what the guy that said about getting another set of front end parts and rejuvenating them at your leisure before you blow your car apart.
 
Man, I'm sorry. I didnt see these reply's. Think my password needs changed or something. Why am I not seeing this thread come up in my user cp.....

anyway. drum breaks. I could afford to spend a bit more on sway bar, torsion bars or shocks, witch is most important? I don't think my shocks are bad, no extreme bounciness in car. car reads about 78K miles which maybe actual millage, but heck if I know, things aren't in too bad of shape. havent checked breaks for about a year, they were fine back then. may start ordering parts this weekend...
 
Man, I'm sorry. I didnt see these reply's. Think my password needs changed or something. Why am I not seeing this thread come up in my user cp.....

anyway. drum breaks. I could afford to spend a bit more on sway bar, torsion bars or shocks, witch is most important? I don't think my shocks are bad, no extreme bounciness in car. car reads about 78K miles which maybe actual millage, but heck if I know, things aren't in too bad of shape. havent checked breaks for about a year, they were fine back then. may start ordering parts this weekend...
Of those three options, I'd add the sway bar. That would have to most dramatic effect assuming your torsion bars and shocks are still in good condition. As for buying a torsion bar removal tool, you can if you have the extra bucks but it isn't necessary. If you're removing the lower control arms anyway, just take all the fasteners loose....strut rod nuts, shocks, lower ball joint, etc, and just drive the lower control arm to the rear.....torsion bar and all. Use a block of wood if you're worried about making a mark on the control arm with a hammer. Sometimes just a pry bar is all you need. The ball joint socket would be a better buy but I've used a big (24") Crescent wrench and a pipe to remove them in the past when I didn't have the tool.
 
Man, I'm sorry. I didnt see these reply's. Think my password needs changed or something. Why am I not seeing this thread come up in my user cp.....

anyway. drum breaks. I could afford to spend a bit more on sway bar, torsion bars or shocks, witch is most important? I don't think my shocks are bad, no extreme bounciness in car. car reads about 78K miles which maybe actual millage, but heck if I know, things aren't in too bad of shape. havent checked breaks for about a year, they were fine back then. may start ordering parts this weekend...

If you have breaks amywhere on your car you need to fix them! If you have drum BRAKES on your car and everything else is reasonably good shape, ungrading to one of the 73 and later disc brake setups is just about the single biggest thing you can do to improve it, especially in the bang for a buck category. Once that's done high quality aftermarket shocks would come next followed replacing the rear springs with brand new replacement ones (as opposed to re-arching the old ones). Replacing the ball joints and every bushing on the car with new ones would be the next logical step (urethane on the strut rods even if you stay with rubber for the rest.) Do a freshened up steering box next (Stage 2 Firm Feel for me). Only after all that would I worry about stabilizer bars and brick bat sized torsion bars.
I found a late 80s Dippy in a pullapart last year and got everything I needed (upper control arms, uprights with balljoints, rotors, caliper brackets and caliper, and all the fasteners, even got the hoses although I'm not going to use reuse them) complete for $45.00 a side. Even if the Dippy had a 2 bolt master you can buy a bracket to use it. You can use the proportioning valve too.
That same Dippy could have donated it's 8 1/4", 4 1/2" bolt pattern rearend, shackles and shackle plates, had I needed it, although I can't remember if the spring perches would have needed to be moved.
 
If you have breaks amywhere on your car you need to fix them! If you have drum BRAKES on your car and everything else is reasonably good shape, ungrading to one of the 73 and later disc brake setups is just about the single biggest thing you can do to improve it, especially in the bang for a buck category. Once that's done high quality aftermarket shocks would come next followed replacing the rear springs with brand new replacement ones (as opposed to re-arching the old ones). Replacing the ball joints and every bushing on the car with new ones would be the next logical step (urethane on the strut rods even if you stay with rubber for the rest.) Do a freshened up steering box next (Stage 2 Firm Feel for me). Only after all that would I worry about stabilizer bars and brick bat sized torsion bars.
I found a late 80s Dippy in a pullapart last year and got everything I needed (upper control arms, uprights with balljoints, rotors, caliper brackets and caliper, and all the fasteners, even got the hoses although I'm not going to use reuse them) complete for $45.00 a side. Even if the Dippy had a 2 bolt master you can buy a bracket to use it. You can use the proportioning valve too.
That same Dippy could have donated it's 8 1/4", 4 1/2" bolt pattern rearend, shackles and shackle plates, had I needed it, although I can't remember if the spring perches would have needed to be moved.


Ok thanks for the break ( uh yah brake) suggestion, I'll work at finding these, either at a pick and pull or here, for the upgrade. also If I'm going to get some parts and prep them for the install before tearing my car apart what exactly do I want to gather?
 
ok, just finished reading about front suspensions from my auto mechanic book and cross referenced my FSM

I'm going to try and take your guys advice and gather parts together. I'm thinking both control arms, maybe center link, sway bar, shocks, torsion bars, disk brakes etc along with all the parts that come in a pst kit. This may take me some time... I'm kinda busy with work...

I'm curious about what parts you guys would paint? the control arms.... what else?
 
paint everything....upper and lower control arms, strut rods, k-member if you can, it all will look nice!
 
I imagine the "requirement" for a torsion bar removal tool started from the photo in the FSM. I wonder if even dealers buy the special tools shown there, since most are easily improvised. The torsion bar pops out easily when you remove the LCA. Remove the spring clip from the rear torsion bar anchor first. Unload the torsion bar fully (car supported on frame). Loosen the LCA bolt. You could hit the LCA rear-ward with a hammer as one post says. I just slip a pry bar between the LCA and K-frame. It should slide back easy. Only grease is holding the torsion bar in the hex socket (unless severe rust), so a little wiggling and it slides out. I also agree with wire-brushing all rust and repainting. I can't believe how ugly some under-car photos are on FABO with new parts installed on rusty frames. Take time to do it right.

As I mentioned, you can save a lot of money by "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Before dis-assembly, you can check your tie rods by trying to turn the wheel by hand while in the air (shake back and forth). If you see or feel any motion (without spinning the gear box), try to identify the loose part. Many times the tie rods are tight and may only need a re-grease and new boots (use polyurethane). It isn't hard to change any of the steering joints later after the suspension is re-assembled, so don't feel "I must do it now".

I don't imagine the upper ball joints experience much force, so if they were regularly greased, they may be fine. If so, leave them in and paint around them, but do install a new poly boot.

You almost always need new rubber bushings. The good part is they are cheap. LCA bushings are the most at ~$12 each. However, you probably must pay to have them pressed. Also, if you live in the salty north, you might spend time with a hacksaw blade wrapped in a rag to get the UCA cam bolts out, since they often rust into the bushings. New ones are cheap ($10?). Grease the bolt shafts when you re-assemble so you never have to do that again.

Often the lower ball joints are worn. It is so much trouble to remove them, you might as well replace them anyway. If you have 10" drum brakes like me, bad luck since ~$60 ea, vs ~$30 for other Darts. I got some cheaper for the future by shopping around.

Re brands. RockAuto carries Mevotech, which is usually much less. Before others start ranting about "Chinese junk", they might ascertain that they aren't all made in the same factory and you just pay big bucks for the Moog brand.

Finally, be cautious following all the advice here. After these guys get you to switch to later disks and the 5x4.5 wheels, they will get you to change your rear-end to match (so you can carry one spare). Then they'll suggest you put in a 360, w/ new tranny and drive-shaft, plus headers. When you are done, you will have only used the shell of the car you started with, or have sold off another unfinished project which is how that often ends. You must decide your path. The as-built design was also fine, and drum brakes will stop a car fine.
 
The parts replacement is about 6 hrs, with the right tools. You don't need a lift, but you'll probably miss air tools if you don't have them and you need the torsion bar tool and a press. The time like Joe said is in the details. Degreasing, blasting, painting, the "might as wells" like the brakes, and detailing that stuff, then the alignment. It will much more expensive if you want it to look new too and you want to pay for it.
the might as wells,will screw ya,if you don't use your head!thats a great description moper,lol,
 
the might as wells,will screw ya,if you don't use your head!thats a great description moper,lol,


yep I think your very right, and I have a need i need to fill so F it.
my suspension sounds bad so I'm now just gona order parts and go to it.
Im gona get all the parts that come in a pst full kit, and maybe shocks and torsion bars.

can I had shocks later without tearing everything apart if I want? where should I get my torsion bars? (f torsion bars from feelfirm are expensive... maybe I'll order those this friday (payday)) ... is .94 not good enough I should get 1.0 or 1.06?

I'm gona order the kit parts NOW.. (ok all order tomorrow morn, when feelfirm is open :p)
 
id use 1.0....get em from just suspension...think they are 200 bucks....not a bad price...i have the same ones...
 
so if I order the torsion bars from just suspension, will the boot kit from FeelFirm work with them?


ordered a kit from firmfeel.. will get some bars. wish I could afford a new set of brakes, shocks, nice tube control arms, new leaf springs, and sway bar..... oh what would be nice....
 
Time is your friend if you want to save hard-earned money. The downside is that I have yet to drive my Dart in 2.5 years. I also considered after-market torsion bars, but held off, then found thicker ones (0.87"D recall) at a Mopar swap meet for $10/pair. He had ~5 sets at that price. My Newport is even worse, having sagged to the rubber bumpers and new T-bars for C bodies are >$300. Finally got a used pair for $50 on ebay, so I can remove the kludge-on coil spring helpers I have used for 15 years.
 
-
Back
Top