Manual trans swaps: Cheapest vs Easiest vs Best Performing vs Best Driving Experience

[yellow rose]

It would be really hard for me to use an 833 in any modern build-up unless I was using it in an original 4 speed car and wanted to stay close to stock etc.

The 833 was a great gearbox. It still is. But it's also heavy and....not-the-smoothest-shifting. Far from it. It also doesn't have an overdrive, or if it does it has only 3 non-OD gears.

I have no experience with Passon and the like but certainly there are other threads on this BB worth reading.

If I had my choice of a street driven manual gearbox, I'd use a TR-6060 out of a Hellcat (not any other version due to gear ratios). It's heavy and not the best shifting, either, but it handles lots of power and has two OD's that are 'intelligently' geared.

For a race gearbox, I'd look into a Liberty or G-Force or one of the other boxes that shift fast and are super light.

Of course, the mighty green Valiant's transmission offers the best in terms of high RPM clutch dropping and manual gear changes but will also gladly change gears automatically should you fear a missed shift or get caught in traffic or wish to have Granny run to the stores for smokes and vodka.

View attachment 1715511058

If the Passon 5 speed wasn’t having issues (still haven’t figured that one out yet...pretty hard to copy an 833 and make it pop out of gear but without some drawings it’s hard to say) I’d pick that box over any newer box.

The new boxes are all notchy and shift like crap when powershifting. I’ve never liked that short throw, click, click shifting. Reminds me of driving a Muncie box, and those are crap.

 

[moparblood]

there was a video awhile back, guy converted 70 charger to stick, soup to nuts. 2 mechanically guys all the goods. about 2 days and round 5k. reality. passon5 speed is 5k. so depends what and how you want it!

 

[gregcon]

AJ, I didn’t read all of this post, or the first one, but did you include rotational inertia of the flywheel in your calculations? A 30 pound flywheel covers a multitude of errors.

Also, if a stick car is bucking at low speeds, that is 100% carb tune up. No cam should ever do that. It’s a carb tuning issue.

Yeah....that looks a lot like someone who has done a lot of book learning but never actually driven a manual trans car. Because all of that theory doesn't actually happen. It's a little like reading a very detailed Penthouse Forum article when you know whoever wrote it actually never even saw a naked girl.

 

[yellow rose]

Yeah....that looks a lot like someone who has done a lot of book learning but never actually driven a manual trans car. Because all of that theory doesn't actually happen. It's a little like reading a very detailed Penthouse Forum article when you know whoever wrote it actually never even saw a naked girl.

Edited out because I’m a dumbass.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Also, if a stick car is bucking at low speeds, that is 100% carb tune up. No cam should ever do that. It’s a carb tuning issue.

I disagree with this.
In my experience;
I'm talking about a 230* to 248 * @.050 (the 292/292/108 Mopar cam), running with a manual trans, and a 750DP carb, at 500/550 rpm in gear; It bucks because;
a) the timing is all wrong, and b) the powerpulses at 185psi cranking pressure are just too high.
Simply retarding the timing to delay, and reduce, peak cylinder pressure, cures this everytime. I have to do the same for fuel-injected cars.
I have tried other things but nothing works as well, or as easy, as just good old-fashioned retarded timing. And with the dash-mounted, adjustable, timing box, this takes about a second.
Your experience may be different.
Please note; I'm not attacking you or your work. This is simply my experience.

A 30 pound flywheel covers a multitude of errors.

As for this, I totally agree, and I run one in mine, for two reasons, OK three,lol.
1) It smooths those pulses at low-rpm. and
2) When I take off normally,with a 10.97 starter gear, I blip the throttle to put some energy into that bad-boy, and more or less just dump the clutch. Not enough to chirp the tires, but enough to just take off nicely. 800 rpm in 10.97 gear is ~6 mph, and my 750Dp is happy to start pulling that just fine. and
3) it's what I had, and after I found out how to use it, I stopped looking for a lighter one at swap meets. and
4) Since my combo spins the tires so easy, and my shift splits are 78-80-78, with attending rpm drops of ~1200 rpm from 5700, as a streeter, I have never felt the need for a lighter flywheel.

I think I know where you're coming from, but not many can boast 1200 rpm drops.
I do this by using the GVod as a splitter, with a 3.09 Commando box. The ratios are 3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50 and 1.50 ratio with 3.55s gets me 88mph@5700, 93@ 6150
My 230 cam peaks around 5300 but the peak is fairly wide, so I let her buck, sometimes to 7000, the tires still spinning. Yeah, BFGs,lol. It's a streeter so I don't care about fast, just slipping and sliding.
And mathematically first-over gets me to 60@~6380rpm, tires blazing, but the tach is on the limiter at 7000.

 

[yellow rose]

I disagree with this.
In my experience;
I'm talking about a 230* to 248 * @.050 (the 292/292/108 Mopar cam), running with a manual trans, and a 750DP carb, at 500/550 rpm in gear; It bucks because;
a) the timing is all wrong, and b) the powerpulses at 185psi cranking pressure are just too high.
Simply retarding the timing to delay, and reduce, peak cylinder pressure, cures this everytime. I have to do the same for fuel-injected cars.
I have tried other things but nothing works as well, or as easy, as just good old-fashioned retarded timing. And with the dash-mounted, adjustable, timing box, this takes about a second.
Your experience may be different.
Please note; I'm not attacking you or your work. This is simply my experience.



As for this, I totally agree, and I run one in mine, for two reasons, OK three,lol.
1) It smooths those pulses at low-rpm. and
2) When I take off normally,with a 10.97 starter gear, I blip the throttle to put some energy into that bad-boy, and more or less just dump the clutch. Not enough to chirp the tires, but enough to just take off nicely. 800 rpm in 10.97 gear is ~6 mph, and my 750Dp is happy to start pulling that just fine. and
3) it's what I had, and after I found out how to use it, I stopped looking for a lighter one at swap meets. and
4) Since my combo spins the tires so easy, and my shift splits are 78-80-78, with attending rpm drops of ~1200 rpm from 5700, as a streeter, I have never felt the need for a lighter flywheel.

I think I know where you're coming from, but not many can boast 1200 rpm drops.
I do this by using the GVod as a splitter, with a 3.09 Commando box. The ratios are 3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50 and 1.50 ratio with 3.55s gets me 88mph@5700, 93@ 6150
My 230 cam peaks around 5300 but the peak is fairly wide, so I let her buck, sometimes to 7000, the tires still spinning. Yeah, BFGs,lol. It's a streeter so I don't care about fast, just slipping and sliding.
And mathematically first-over gets me to 60@~6380rpm, tires blazing, but the tach is on the limiter at 7000.

Why would you let it idle at 500-550 in gear? These aren’t modern jap cars. That I don’t understand.

I ran the 292/108 for years. It idled at 950-1000, which is where the cam I use now idles, because a slow idle is a parts killer, especially with aggressive .904 lobes. And none of my personal stuff, or stuff I tune bucks. I just sent out a QF Brawler and distributor I tuned up and the guy is over the top happy, and that’s just a rough tune to start with. I know that doesn’t buck.

Doing a pair of carbs for his brother...two 750 DP for a street tunnel ram and I did his distributor. 248/248 .648/.648 108 solid roller and I can say with 100% accuracy, it will not buck. It’s all about tuning. I know you know that, because I read your posts and your tuning is on the money.

 

[gregcon]

I run at least 20 degrees timing at idle in anything I own (anything that lets me adjust the timing). The more timing, the higher the vacuum and the better it runs. A good vacuum signal down low works wonders in just about any non-EFI engine.

Most factory 10.5" flywheels were around 27-30 lbs so running a 30lbs flywheel is nothing unusual.