Mini starters for 5.7

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Boony405hp

Boony405hp

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I see that you can get a mini starter for the 5.7 hemi according to here: http://www.hotrod.com/howto/hrdp_0706_hemi_swap/photo_09.html

I'm trying to find out the difference in size between the factory one and the mini one, I am after a reduction in length as my car is RHD the starter is on the driver's side and it is running into the rack and pinion steering knuckle.

I will be centering the engine, the gearbox still needs to come up a bit I believe but It will still fowl the knuckle.

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Hey mate, I'm not to sure if they get any smaller, but I could be wrong.
 
What transmission are you using? Is it a bolt on bellhousing? The 545rfe has a left hand starter position
 
4dr4ever said:
What transmission are you using? Is it a bolt on bellhousing? The 545rfe has a left hand starter position
Click to expand...

It's a 6spd from a dodge challenger. what is the depth of the 545rfe? Would it be able to be swapped with the 6spd one, I think it is detachable from the gearbox.
 
do you know the model name of the transmission your using? realistically if the bellhousing is bolt on I would suggest you look at(if one isn't available) getting a bellhousing made with the starter position on the left side. IMO it isn't just about fitting the starter in there you have to be able to change it to.
 
looked it up and I'm assuming your using the tr6060 6 speed which should share the same bellhousing pattern as it's earlier t56. imo you should look into buying a Quicktime bellhousing to adapt the small block(shares bolt pattern with the 5.7/6.1) and puts the starter on the lh side of the car. IMO this would be your best option as long as the pattern is the same/should require little modification but I'd check with quicktime. This will help first with the clearance issues and will also allow you to remove and service the starter without running into issues of removing the steering gear to get it all out. the part number is rm-8074
 
You have to be careful with using the Quicktime housing though, you'll run into other things that have to change if you go that route. The Quicktime setup uses the smaller 130 tooth starter gear, so you'll have to go with a swap flywheel that's smaller diameter and a 10.5" clutch to match it. In addition, the TR6060 doesn't bolt up completely without modification to that bellhousing from what I've seen. There's one extra rib in the front cover of the trans that you have to grind down some so it will sit flush with the flange on the bellhousing (or rather I think you notch the bellhousing instead of the trans, would have to look it up again). You'd probably be better off trying to get a smaller starter first if at all possible, otherwise you'll have to change pretty much the whole setup between the engine and trans.

This is all assuming that you're trying to use a full engine/trans takeout that had all the pieces to begin with. If you don't have a clutch or flywheel already then either route would be pretty similar.
 
Is there even a starter that small in existence? Like I said it'll be one thing to get it to fit but in time when the starter kicks the bucket and you have to pull your steering rack or lift the engine just to change out the starter and you'll be one pissed off guy in his driveway
 
Boony405hp said:
do you have any physical dimensions of this?
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Sorry no, and I´m overseas now couple months so measuring is not possible. But the lengt was maybe little bit less than mini starter, solenoid is very small and stator is quite same size like in mini starter.
There was somebody´s hemi swap topic where was picture of it installed, but can´t remember where :dontknow:

Found it now:
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?67827-Project-Orange-Crate-Cuda-65-Barracuda/page7
 
Yeah my tranny is a tr6060 not a t56, I don't see why it won't come off though, it's looks like about 8 bolts in there and it should come off. I'd need to shove the motor back 8cm in order to give me 10mm clearance. If I do that then the firewall needs to be pushed back but the worst part is the part where the steering column bolts to the floor would have to be pushed back I think due to the wide heads.

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(the white tape shows how far out the shaft from the steering rack comes to

I measure the depth of the bellhousing and its about 185mm (7.283"), is that what the depth of the one on your t56 is? According to the one people say to use the 8074, http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=2246 it only has a depth of 6.697" or 170mm
 
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As for the clutch

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240mm

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appears to be 131 tooth??? counted it twice, tried to google it the part number shows up as a dodge challenger flywheel so that checks out, can't find how many teeth, this being a 131 tooth and those bells asking for a 130 tooth

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I was pretty sure a stock 5.7 flywheel/flexplate was 143 tooth, but I might be thinking of the later model magnum 5.2 and 5.7's. The 130 tooth flywheel is the old small block style 10.5" clutch setup. You cannot run the stock flywheel that's on the new Hemis with the Quicktime bellhousing, you have to use the older flywheel (Mopar makes a swap flywheel with the required 130 teeth and 8 bolt flywheel pattern). They come in both aluminum and steel. I got a brand new one on Ebay for about $100 cheaper than most other places I saw it, though it may have come down in price over the year it's been since I bought mine.
 
Map63Vette said:
I was pretty sure a stock 5.7 flywheel/flexplate was 143 tooth, but I might be thinking of the later model magnum 5.2 and 5.7's. The 130 tooth flywheel is the old small block style 10.5" clutch setup. You cannot run the stock flywheel that's on the new Hemis with the Quicktime bellhousing, you have to use the older flywheel (Mopar makes a swap flywheel with the required 130 teeth and 8 bolt flywheel pattern). They come in both aluminum and steel. I got a brand new one on Ebay for about $100 cheaper than most other places I saw it, though it may have come down in price over the year it's been since I bought mine.
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I am using a stock hemi flywheel (ram 2500 truck) and its a 143 tooth flywheel. So you are correct. But I am also running a truck transmission and clutch so I am not worried about the bell housing as you mention.
 
Couple of questions for you that might help me to clarify the situation:

The transmission is from a 6.1L or 6.4L Hemi and is a Tremec 6060 correct?
The engine is a 5.7L Hemi correct?
The flywheel is a stock 6.1L or 6.4L Hemi flywheel for the Tremec 6060 correct?
You need a starter that will be mounted on the drivers side because that is where it is mounted on your Tremec 6060 correct?

If all the above questions are yes, here's some things that may help.

1. It appears that you have not cut the tunnel of your car. In order to fit the T-56 or Tremec 6060 you have to greatly modify the tunnel to fit. Raising the transmission a couple of inches will raise the starter a couple of inches and may resolve your clearance issues. In other threads you can see the significant tunnel modifications necessary to get the 6060 to fit. They are not insubstantial.

2. The modern starters ARE the mini-starters. This is ONE area where Mopar guys have an advantage over the Chevy guys, modern factory starters are about as mini as they come. Simply using the correct factory starter for a Hemi with a manual transmission is about the best you can do. There are a few companies that make clockable starters for Chryslers, but they aren't that much smaller and they cost about 400.00 USD.

3. I know your plan was to have the engine centered in the car. Be aware that US Chryslers had the engine offset to the passenger side to clear the factory steering box. I believe the offset was between 1 and 2 inches (2.5 to 5 cm) to the passenger side. Moving your engine that amount to the passenger side might also free up some room.

I think moving the engine UP 2.5 to 5 cm and to the passenger side 2.5 to 5 cm might create enough clearance to connect your rack and pinion steering.

Best of luck,

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Joe Dokes said:
Couple of questions for you that might help me to clarify the situation:

The transmission is from a 6.1L or 6.4L Hemi and is a Tremec 6060 correct? It is from a 5.7L Dodge Challenger and is the Tremec 6060
The engine is a 5.7L Hemi correct? Yes
The flywheel is a stock 6.1L or 6.4L Hemi flywheel for the Tremec 6060 correct? Yes it is the stock Tremec 6060 flywheel P/N 05038113AC
You need a starter that will be mounted on the drivers side because that is where it is mounted on your Tremec 6060 correct? The factory starter location is on the right hand side of the car (if you were sitting in the car) however I want it on the left hand side as it hits my steering knuckle on the rack as my car is Right Hand drive

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(You can see if I was to move it over in it's actual location (physically can't atm) it would hit the knuckle)
If all the above questions are yes, here's some things that may help.

1. It appears that you have not cut the tunnel of your car. In order to fit the T-56 or Tremec 6060 you have to greatly modify the tunnel to fit. Raising the transmission a couple of inches will raise the starter a couple of inches and may resolve your clearance issues. In other threads you can see the significant tunnel modifications necessary to get the 6060 to fit. They are not insubstantial.

I have cut the tunnel hump, however the gearbox is hitting the tunnel near the firewall,

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2. The modern starters ARE the mini-starters. This is ONE area where Mopar guys have an advantage over the Chevy guys, modern factory starters are about as mini as they come. Simply using the correct factory starter for a Hemi with a manual transmission is about the best you can do. There are a few companies that make clockable starters for Chryslers, but they aren't that much smaller and they cost about 400.00 USD.


3. I know your plan was to have the engine centered in the car. Be aware that US Chryslers had the engine offset to the passenger side to clear the factory steering box. I believe the offset was between 1 and 2 inches (2.5 to 5 cm) to the passenger side. Moving your engine that amount to the passenger side might also free up some room.

The difference in the Australian versions of 'A' bodies was that instead of the k-frame mounted steering boxes, ours were mounted to the chassis rail, you can imagine having it bolted up there, then having the engine already offset to that side and trying to feed extractors through that gap, hence why I am moving it to the left of the car those few inches you mentioned.

I think moving the engine UP 2.5 to 5 cm and to the passenger side 2.5 to 5 cm might create enough clearance to connect your rack and pinion steering.

Best of luck,

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

Thanks for the in depth post Joe
 
Hmmm,

Thanks for the additional pics, and explanations. Based upon your pictures and explanation I have a few more questions and suggestions, thoughts, ramblings, and perhaps just random crap spewing from my keyboard.

Thanks for the interior pics, with the cut up tunnel, it shows me that you are probably not going to gain all that much more height in moving the engine up. It looks like you MIGHT gain 2.5 cm but that's about it. I don't think you'll gain the 5 cm I was thinking. And from the new pics you posted it doesn't look like moving the motor up or down, right or left is going to gain you the space need to make that starter fit. You really need a starter that is approximately 12 cm shorter. I just don't think anyone makes anything that small. :(


Considering the expense of an aftermarket bell housing, clutch, flywheel, and all the related components you might want to sharpen your pencil and consider a couple of different options. I am not really sure what parts from the 6060 you could use with a Quicktime bell housing. My complete GUESS is that you'd have to replace the clutch, flywheel, throwout bearing, and slave cylinder, but I could be WRONG. Considering the bell housing is over 500 USD, throwing parts at the problem might get really expensive really quick.

First Option: Buy the bell housing and related hardware and hope you can get it to fit on the passenger side of the car. (AKA the American Drivers Side) I think regardless of what you end up doing your looking at custom headers.

Second Option: Convert to a front mounted rack an pinion setup. I noticed that you already posted a couple of questions are Reillymotorsports.com. I'm actually surprised he hasn't responded to your questions yet. From his earlier posts it looks like the alter-k-tion is a viable option, though it is very expensive.

Since you only need the rack mounted up front, you might consider simply swapping the steering knuckles (spindles) from side to side and mounting the rack in approximately the same location as the factory sway bar. You'd need a new rack, but rebuilt racks can be purchased for few hundred dollars, so depending on your fab skills, this might be the cheapest way to go. Of course you'd have to make sure that your geometry was correct otherwise bump steer might be a real problem, and incorporating a sway bar might also be tricky.

Best of luck thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
The rules over here are a little more strict than over there in the USA so getting everything approved and engineered is a bit harder. If that rack option doesn't work, It may be back to the steering box setup. The rack setup bolted to the car has been approved in the past.

I have recently cut the top of the tunnel and into the firewall anyway and I am going to custom make a new section and re-weld it in.

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My original flex plate on the engine (was an auto engine) is 131 tooth, as is my Manual flywheel. I can't see why by just changing to the quicktime bellhousing that I can't use the factory clutch and flywheel that I have that came with the challenger??
 
Boony,

I have run with the 727 which puts the starter on the other side away from the steering column, the starter is still very close to the torsion bars so went with a adjustable starter. Pricey they are but offer a bit of adjustment, dont think they would help you in this instance. Those Tremecs are a big tranny.
 
I'm thinking the 8074 won't have a deep enough bell, if you look below at this picture it shows the depth of the oem bell for the 6060 on a challenger as 7.5 or 190mm which is correct. The 8074 is only 6.697" and I've read the engine plate saver is only .125. This is going to be too short for the box. I was thinking if I got the 8074 I'd then need to have a spacer plate made up to fill the gap of 7.5-6.697. Thoughts?
bellhousingoptions.jpg
 
Been thinking about your starter / steering issue. Thought of something you can try that won't cost you anything, or at least not very much.

Take your old box and mount, tack weld them in place leaving the new mount for the rack and pinion in place, but REMOVING the rack. Lower the motor and trans as a single unit and see if it fits, or is close to fitting. Even if you have to buy a used box and K-member you probably can pick both up for 150.00 dollars, a lot cheaper than a 400.00 bell housing. If it doesn't work you can probably sell the used k-member and box and get back most of what you spent.

At least this way, you'll know if reverting to the stock steering box has a pretty good chance of success. If it looks like it will work, then you can mock everything up and THEN weld the old steering box mount in place and cut off the mounts for your rack and pinion setup.

Anyhow, just some thoughts,

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
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