mopar crate engine

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There will be more about what happened at a later date. Diamondback tried something completely different than everyone else. I didnt see you invited to the competition. Talks cheap.
 
Because I'm not a professional engine builder.....I'm just some schmuck. I've never claimed and will never claim to know everything. I just think it was a dumb move to try something totally new on a magazine engine challenge when you are a new business.....this is the last thing I'm gonna say on this....sorry for hijacking the thread.
 
moper said:
I thought I'd add this: Just pulled from a $9500 Indy dyno'd crate. They installed the wrong oil pump drive. Put a bronze gear drive in with a hydraulic cast cam. Engine never ran right, never had the same power as the Indy supplied sheet said. Now timing was bouncing all over. The drive gear teeth are 1/2 way worn thru. All it takes is reading the MP catalog, and you'll know it's wrong. And the fact that it's bright bronze as opposed to a forged steel gear cant hurt IDing it either. In very limited experience (1 friend who used them) I have only seen major issues from MEW. Stuff a Mopar shop should not have problems with. (oiling system mods...or lack there of on a 7K rpm primarily race stroker small block) It ate some bearings, causing a freshening with extras for him. They denied any wrongdoing.
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Wow, didn't know that. So I guess I'm only left with one other option...
 
You know when you are the administrator of a Mopar board (as I am at another Mopar Board) -- you piss some people off because you change the forums or it's look -- as I did to someone posting in this thread. Some of these people then post their anger and are no longer a member of the board. While many are mature enough to move on -- some are not and have a personal axe to grind.

Since I also own Diamondback Engines, and because of this thread being brought to my attention -- I posted the truth on my board. The below is what I posted.

Now that Mopar Muscle Magazine is starting to publish results on their web site and others that don't know the facts are taking their shots on various boards -- I generally tell you what happened and let Damon fill you in on the details. Keep in mind that because of the politics of relationships between different people and different companies -- it is hard to get the real story out. A lot of asses need to be covered, some people posting on other boards have personal agendas, and then there are business relationships. Below is our story.

To start off with -- we discussed what our goal was going to be. We felt we had three choices:

1. Big a low power low buck engine and win the dollar per horsepower contest. But why -- since we don't build or sell these motors.

2. Be conservative -- and build the 408 we most often build, with Edelbrock heads and a conservative cam. Maybe the best choice as we've built many of these, which are dependable and have great power for the dependability.

3. Be damn with the contest and win the horsepower race by building something running on the ragged edge.

I initially wanted to go with number 2 and Damon wanted to go with Number 3 -- but I changed my mind and decided we'd either be heroes or goats.

We decided on B1BA heads and a radical experimental roller cam that Damon and Mark Cicone (an engineer with Bullet Cams) worked out to have a high lift -- yet burn Rocket 93 gas.

The high high/fast ramp-up of the cam required that we go with 700 pound springs to make the 7000 RPM Dyno runs -- which was out of the league of most aluminum rocker assemblies we have used with the Edelbrock heads on small blocks -- so Damon called and spoke with someone in engineering with Competition Cams about their newer all steel roller rocker assembly. They assured us that it could take the 700 pound springs and so we ordered one.

We had initial problems with our local Dyno shop -- due to a severe illness with the owner and Dyno operator. Calls to other Dyno shops had most not wanting or having plates for Mopars. We finally found one 90 minutes away but couldn't get a slot until the Thursday (7-days before D-Day) before we were to deliver the engine to the Nats.

While running the engine on the Dyno -- we blew some rockers and galled the shaft. There were no replacement rocker assemblies in the state (must be nice to be Chevy) and so we had one Red labeled to the Dyno shop from Tennessee. It came in the next morning -- and Damon cut Banana grooves in the shaft to better spread the oil under the rockers. By the time we had a chance to run the engine on the Dyno again, it was late afternoon. Again at about 4500 RPM (where the engine was making big power and climbing) something went wrong. Upon removing the valve covers we again saw that we broke rocker adjusters and galled the rocker arms.

It was too late on Friday to order anything -- so all we could do is bring the motor back to the shop. Saturday the top was torn down to inspect the valves -- and they were OK. We spun the oil pump with a drill and felt like we weren't getting enough oil to the end of the arms.

It this point, where we had to leave Thursday to take the motor to the Nats -- we had two choices. Be pussies and make up some lame lie as to why we couldn't deliver an engine (maybe the best business decision for some) -- or be men and work day and night for the few days remaining and bring a motor that couldn't be Dyno'd (as there was now time left). For us -- there was only one answer -- to be men and let the chips fall where they may.

Saturday was spent making calls and searching the web to see if there were problems and solutions to B1BA heads. We found that there were indeed oiling issues with the end rockers with the Competition Cams rocker assemblies -- and the most used solution was to drill out the bottom mounting hole of the shaft with the next larger drill bit. It was Saturday -- and there was no way to order the replacement assembly until Monday -- so we turned our attention to the heads. With the Dyno numbers that we had (something like (from memory) 465hp at 4200 RPM before the problem), and in the process of discussing and searching about these heads on the net -- we felt like there was more potential with more porting. We flowed the heads to verify that against the top numbers some claimed to get -- and Sunday and Monday was spent porting them some more.

We also ordered the replacement shaft on Monday from the guy substituting for our regular distributor contact -- who was at the Sturgis Rally. However, when we called the distributor back in the late afternoon to verify the part was being overnighted -- he told us that they had none in stock. A call to Competition Cams explaining our situation -- also had them telling us that they were out of stock on small block rocker assemblies. Very Strange! At 5PM on Monday night -- I finally get a hold of my racer account rep at Summit -- and he gets me an assembly -- and ensures that it goes out overnight.

Tuesday -- two days before we leave for the Nats. Since we're way out in the sticks -- no one will give us morning delivery -- despite the $100 overnight I just paid. It finally arrived at about 2PM and Damon over-drilled and banana grooved the oil holes on the shaft. The rocker assembly was installed and when the oil pump was spun -- oil squirted everywhere. Great -- we found the solution just in time!

So Wednesday the engine was assembled and put on the engine stand -- to be broke in and tuned. We chose not to run it at high RPMs -- as we couldn't put a load on it to do so. Now while we would never had done a customer's engine this way -- time had run out, and all we had time for was to wrap it, load it, and take it to Columbus. It was what it was. A customer's would have us call the customer to tell them of a delay. We didn't have that option with Mopar Muscle Magazine.

When the Motor was run on Competition Cams Dyno on Monday morning -- everything was going great with the numbers (hp, torque, A/F ratio) bumping it 300 RPM at a time until around 4800 RPM. Then the sound and the numbers indicated an obvious problem and we shut it down. We were given 45 minutes to make three Dyno pulls -- with any repairs or tuning, and had already burned some of the time getting the motor up to temperature. Damon and Cruz scrambled to remove the valve covers and I ran about 1/4 mile across the lot to where I had parked my truck to get a spare rocker set I had got my hands on. By the time I got back -- the rocker assemblies were off and the three rockers seized on one arm and four on another. Push rods were bent -- and we suspected a valve or two was also.

Randy and Dave with Mopar Muscle are very good and very fair people. However, rules are rules! With 9 minutes left to get the new arms on, adjusted, and three pulls still needing to be made -- we threw in the towel.

The Dyno tech told me that someone asked him to ask me to sell them back my rocker assembly -- as they were still out of stock. I declined. However, I did ask the Dyno tech to hook me up with an engineer and I insisted that the rockers and arms have a Rockwell test on them -- as Damon suspected that there might have been a problem. The fact that you couldn't get a set from Comp for over a month that I knew of, them wanting to buy back ours, and three rocker shafts getting galled -- Damon suspected the rockers were harder than the shafts.

We were led to the R&D department and a Rockwell test was performed on the shaft and rockers. Two people acted a little sheepish -- and made a comment that there was a problem were some of these, and they had tried to nitrate shafts to fix it the problem. (They had actually offered to allow us to use the Nitrated shafts -- but again there was only 9 minutes left) The test results showed that the shafts were indeed much softer than the rockers, and there was no way they could have held up with 700 pound springs.

Now this all might sound like a bunch of excuses -- and they may be.

I've only recently (last year or so) seen the advertisements for Comps steel roller rockers -- so I assume they're new. I suspect that they might job the manufacturing of them out, as that is a common practice. I think there might have been a problem with one lot of the small block Mopars rocker arms -- and they were discretely pulled while it got worked out. No one told me this -- just my impression of the circumstances, looks, and voice deflections.

Make no mistake about it. The Comp people were very nice to us, didn't have to do the Rockwell test for us (it takes an honest business to do it and let the chips fall where they may), and have given the Dyno time to Mopar Muscle Magazine. We got a tour of the facility -- and these people have their stuff together. We would buy from them again, as we feel this was an isolated problem and bad mouthing a good Mopar vendor won't change our Dyno pull. That rocker assembly on 99% of the race motors using less spring pressure would have most likely worked.

It is our fault because we let a couple of our customers beg and plead us for priority for various reasons. To accommodate a couple of customers that needed their engines sooner than the reasonable and customary lead time -- we cut into our Competition Engine time -- still thinking we had more than enough time. Had we stuck to our guns and started this engine two weeks sooner (or this been a customer engine where we could have not worried about bad magazine press from missing a deadline) -- we could have overcame this comedy of errors and had time to have gone with Hughes or Harland Sharp Rockers.

We knew that going extreme to have the highest HP number -- we would makes us heroes or goats -- and we rolled the dice and crapped out. I guess we're goats to those who take great pleasure in this turn of events -- but frankly I'm not ashamed and would go this route again ensuring the motor was done 90 days early!

Based on the flow numbers and the Dyno numbers until the rockers crapped out -- we feel like we would have been between 625 and 650 hp. The motor has been torn down and other that the rockers, push-rods and a couple intake valves -- it looks great. The burn pattern and bearing wear showed that we had a great motor that would have made high horsepower with a rocker assembly that could have taken 700 pound springs. I'll try to take some photos later.

Mopar Muscle has suggested that we fix the problem and Dyno the motor -- and they'll publish the results as a sidebar to the event. They claimed to be impressed with the numbers as they were going up, and bent over back wards to allow us to make it happen within the scope of the rules. On the one hand we might do that -- but on the other the haters will claim we used NOS or something. With some people you can't do anything that won't get a post with venom dripping off it.

I think I might buy the motor, put some Harland Sharps in it -- and see if I can get the Aspen in the 9s -- just for kicks. Or we might put it in Dallas' Barracuda and the Magnum in the Aspen. Who knows -- we're too busy getting back to the business of building engines and carbs to think too hard about it at the moment.

I'm sure Damon will add his comments.
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People will have their opinions, and for many of those people, there is nothing I can do to change that. However, I would appreciate Joey Chicago's opportunity to set the record straight on what happened.
 
Why do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you or something you do is a hater? I don't hate your board...in fact I like a lot of the members there and have made some friends there and learned a lot of good info there as well as here. It is strictly my opinion to not use or recommend your shop to anyone....that's it it's my opnion. When some one posts a thread about asking where to get a motor or if they should buy parts from some place or another they are asking for other members opnions. You might not agree or you might agree.....just because I disagree with you doens't mean I'm a hater or anything like that I'm just stating my opinion. I don't like Summit Racing because of past dealings with them, I don't like Layson's (Who does) I'm not a hater of them I just don't recomend them or if someone asks about them I say to pass or go elsewhere.....same with your shop....I know some people that were stepped and used and it wasn't right so that's where my opinion was formed......same as politics.....IIRC you and I agree a lot on that subject and I know you were in the Military and I thank you for the service but I am not a fan of your shop and when asked I'll tell people that.....If I was a hater I feel that I would be out creating threads or bringing the shop up so i could badmouth it and I don't do that.....sorry if you took it that way but it was my opinion that a mistake was made......we all make them and I'm sorry it happened and I hope you can get it fixed and that MM does a sidebar article on your motor and prints on what it could have done in the competition. Life is to short to have vendetta's against people for shallow things which I know is why you have a lot of actual "haters" out there and I don't feel i am one of them.....I just have a difference of opinion. Sorry if it came off a different way but that is the hard part of a message board.....no emotion or personal touch....just a cold keyboard.
 
ab7fh said:
Do machine shops give any warranty at all on motors that they build? I know most didn't used to... Once you picked up your motor, you were on your own. The factory warranty is the only reason I would ever consider a crate engine.

If they don't stand behind their product and honor their warranties, there's a BIG problem...
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I would think some places might prefer to break in your engine for you though. I know I'd rather the builder do it (with me present). That way if something goes wrong it ain't your fault and they can't blame you for not breaking in your engine properly if you do it.
 
the primary problem with this is that every one is using a case study on wether or not to use that shop for a new motor we are all human there will be some fuckups but it is best to get a good warente on the equiptment that yuo buy
 
BigK, well written. And while I understand the reason why things were done the way they were (go for the glory...to hell with 2nd place), I can't understand why as a business owner you would want to. The biggest single reason for the EM program is to get people to read magazines. Next is to bring business in to your shop. It's acompetition. I wouldnt bring a fresh new combo to the divisional points finals...ya know? I dont frequent the other board. But god knows I'm around, and I know what you mean by internet "keyboard" cajones and personal vendettas. I haven't seen your product, or had any interactions with those that have. So, it's nothing personal here. I just dont think I would have built a package with that much risk going into a high profile propaganda fest. I think when the issues started showing, I probably would have thrown together a basic proven. With two weeks to go, that could have been done easy, and even if it was #28, you name and a solid enigne would be on the pages. Much better for business than "no show" or "broken". Nice job in any case. You got a lot of balls.
 
Holy Shiz nit. I missed this? Yikes.

Well, from 2 posters here, there seems to be an axe to grind. (Seems is the key word.)

Belonging to another board where the dircet compotion was also posting about there engine and posting alot there, seems like there kickin a fellow MoPar man when he's down is what there doing.

To quote someone above, about not testing an engine before they bring it to a Mag's Comp. I remember another 1 -2 or maybe even 3 other competors doing the same thing and there engine blownin up only to return and do well. with there next engine.

I say it took balls to dare to custom grind your own speced cam shaft and throw it into the mix. There time cut short with customer service ios a catch 22. Screw the customer to do well at the dyno shoot out or do the customer right and face possible failure in front of the world.

Big balls and a hell of a challenge to pull off.

Dusterb 318
From this statement foward about them,
Take a look at their Mopar Muscle Challenge engine and see how good it was and that tells me enough to stay away from them......
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You sound like a hater and only get worse as your posts go on. You based everything they do , did , and have done well on , on one engine failure.
Shame.
 
I have a real nice 383 BIG BLOCK ENGINE for $2700 that would be great in your Mopar!

Completely Rebuild Last Fall With All New Mopar Performance Parts!
This is the good 1967 block, heads and forged crank.
All parts are NEW and purchased through Mopar performance (Forged Rod, Forged Pistons, New 509 Hyd Cam, Heads Have NEW Seats / Valves / Springs / Keepers / Etc., NEW Dual Roller Timing Set and Fluid Filled Balancer)

If you have an interest please feel free to e-mail or call me.
York, PA 17403
[email protected]
717-515-7231

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