More HP on 273 Stock 63 Dart GT Vert?

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Rhetor

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Just scored yesterday a 1963 Dart GT Black w/red stripe convertible 4 speed manual . . . (all original--even the glass and cigarette lighter-- original engine in the car--know the original owner, repainted once 15 years ago)!

And it was always plated and runs and has stayed on the road (well almost, ran yesterday wouldn't stay running when loaded on tow truck--carburetor of course)! All original except top (3 years old) . . . well used, no dents (or bondo) worn out buckets seats . . . but I am happy! 132,000 miles but total rebuild on the stock engine at 108,000.

Cosmetically all worn out, but 100% there!

All stock with the 273 V8 . . . old radio even works . . . AM only! :icon_smi:

Now, first thing . . . I need more power than the original 273 V8--180 hp (on the original . . . besides the tune up . . . what first in the quest for more hp?

More power before cosmetics!

I am on this forum for help! Lord knows I will need it! :iconbigg:

So . . . help me to start of list of specific parts to start buying and replacing . . . want to keep the original 273 V8 for now (until it blows up some day).

Gotta a tiny carb on it stock! And 13 inch wheels? Really small!

Want to clean up and bolt up! Specific part recommendations needed so I can start ordering!

Help me build this joker up what little I can without an engine and tranny swap (got a 4 speed manual in it).

I am on this forum for help! Lord knows I will need it! :iconbigg:
 
First of all, a '63 would not have come with a V8 as factory equipment. Either your car is a '64 and newer or a 273 has been swapped into the car in place of the 6. The easiest horsepower gain is by adding a 4bbl, dual exhaust, and electronic ignition. A cam upgrade at the same time might be a good idea also. To make the car quicker, put in some lower gears in the rear. If you go that route, you might as well find (or build) an 8 3/4 rear end for the car. It will handle the extra horsepower much better than the 7 1/4 you have now. Then comes better brakes....you see where this is going, right??
Thanks, Mark
 
cudamark said:
First of all, a '63 would not have come with a V8 as factory equipment. Either your car is a '64 and newer or a 273 has been swapped into the car in place of the 6. The easiest horsepower gain is by adding a 4bbl, dual exhaust, and electronic ignition. A cam upgrade at the same time might be a good idea also. To make the car quicker, put in some lower gears in the rear. If you go that route, you might as well find (or build) an 8 3/4 rear end for the car. It will handle the extra horsepower much better than the 7 1/4 you have now. Then comes better brakes....you see where this is going, right??
Thanks, Mark
Click to expand...

Mark . . . unbelievable . . . I look at the original title in my file I got with the car . . . it is a 1964 Dodge Dart GT convertible . . . with the V8 (chiclet emblem on the car . . . the big V) . . . Mark . . . you know your stuff . . . I am generally not very trusting, but your pick up the of the 1964 (instead of the 1963 I thought I had) got my attention . . . permanently!!!!!!:cheers:

Harleys I know . . . I even have an antique first year Gold Wing . . . but this is my first foray into antique cars! When I bought the 1964 Dart GT Convertible today . . . the owner coerced me into buying his running 1963 (on the title too--your correction made me check) all original 4 door Chevy Impala with a 283 in it . . . basically threw it in with the deal if I would take it . . . never dreamed my wife would want the Chevy boat . . . but she loves it!

So, simple now . . . you got my attention and (not normal for me, quick admiration based on a forum answer) I need your help (as well as my friend shop and lift nearby coaching me on wrench turning) . . .

I am on some great forums for my motorcycles . . . have given and received a lot of help on those projects.

I want to do this right, just once and have fun driving the car (as safely and powerfully) this summer. So I turned to this forum.

In December 2007 I was t-boned by a kid on a cell phone in an SUV . . . 11 surgeries later and 18 months in a wheelchair, I started walking (well, limping for life.) But I am functional now . . . and after spending most of the last two summers in a wheelchair, I am looking for summer fun and to finish my healing by mechanically rehabbing this running 64 Dart GT convertible!

Yes, I "see where this is going," but with the right coaching for parts, it will save me the headache and frustration of buying the wrong stuff.

What 4bbl carb (model)?

What brand/model dual exhaust? (Should I add an X-pipe)?

What specific cam?

What lower gears to purchase?

Details on which 8 3/4 rear end to find/purchase/build?

Might as well talk brakes then wheels too.

What kind of hp and torque gain should I expect when I have done everything I can except an engine swap?

This is my summer project . . . towed it directly to the build on site . . . ready to amass the parts and move on this as my summer project . . . the sooner the better! I am pretty excited about it and have 3 months with lots of free time, a mechanic friend who restores older cars (but never worked on Mopar or a 60's Dart) to coach my wrenching, and reasonable health.

Best of all, I have the wife's permission to upbuild the 64 Dart as long as she can have the 63 Impala--tuning it up, changing fluids, and doing mechanical inspection (and any needed maintenance) to put her on the road on Thursday with the boat! :)

I am ready to make the specific parts list and find 'em or buy 'em and start bolting on!

Sincerely, I do appreciate the help! I want to do this right and fun . . . mechanics now . . . cosmetics whenever! :)
 
i would consider a swap to an 8 3/4 rear end a mandatory part of your build if you want to actually have fun driving the car and banging gears. dual exhaust from the manifolds should not be a problem for any competent exhaust shop but headers for these cars are another story. as for your other engine upgrades you'd probably do well with a package kit from Edelbrock.
also i'd lose the 13" wheels. your car has the 5 on 4" bolt pattern so wheel choice is limited especially if you decide not to go with rally wheels but they are out there.
-Tim
 
First step add dual exhaust off the stock manifolds. I suggest replace the starter with a small 1995 era one while the exhaust is out of the way.

you want even more power, add several more cubic inches.
Thats what I did. ;)

a 2bll 318 circa 1969 is 230 hp, with 340llbs torque
take a 318, add a cam, and duals and a 4bbl your at 260-280 hp easy.

Torque is what moves your car. ;)

Thats with 87 octane pump gas.

1964/65 specs
273 3.630 3.310 180 @ 4200 260 @ 1600 8.70 : 1 2bbl
273 3.630 3.310 235 @ 5200 280 @ 4000 10.50 : 1 4bbl

1969 318
318 3.910 3.310 230 @ 4400 340 @ 2400 9.20 : 1 2bbl
 
Welcome aboard! You will love the FABO family here! As I read your post, I was noting the same 273 error. I may end up with an extra formula s sway bar along with the lower control arms with tabs to allow you to get some extra handling. As far a intakes go, the original four barrel intake will have have to come from a 65 as the bolt holes are a different angle and are smaller. An edelbrock d4b or ld340 (will need slight mods) are good replacements and are a lot lighter than the cast iron. Not sure if you are wanting to stay all stock. A 600 CFM carter (edelbrock) carb is a good choice. I am currently building a 273 commando and am about to put back in my car. Good luck, keep posting and you will get lots of great advice, support, parts, etc.
bamacuda
aka David
 
Optik said:
i would consider a swap to an 8 3/4 rear end a mandatory part of your build if you want to actually have fun driving the car and banging gears. dual exhaust from the manifolds should not be a problem for any competent exhaust shop but headers for these cars are another story. as for your other engine upgrades you'd probably do well with a package kit from Edelbrock.
also i'd lose the 13" wheels. your car has the 5 on 4" bolt pattern so wheel choice is limited especially if you decide not to go with rally wheels but they are out there.
-Tim
Click to expand...
Hi, Tim . . . definitely want to do the 8 3/4 rear end . . . novice, so . . . would that move me to some posi rear end?

Definitely want to to the dual exhaust . . . researching now what to buy and bolt on.

Is there an Edelbrock kit specific to the 1964 273? Which kit for that old engine? Just the original 2bbl on it now.

Is conversion to CAI a possibility with a kit?
 
If you're just going to do some bolt-on stuff right now, I'd stick to mild. Check with the cam manufacturers for their specs/performance charts to see what sounds like your desires without having to notch pistons and changing valve springs, etc. Don't go crazy here....something in the low 4's is plenty. It's real easy to overcam a stock engine. The factory 4bbl engine from '65-7 used a .435 lift which worked great. I've used the ones from Isky with good success. Their specs are real close to the stock 4bbl. ones.
The original style 4bbl intake for your heads only came from the factory one year (1965) so they are a bit hard to find. There are aftermarket ones out there too so you may have better luck finding one of those. The originals are a low profile, single plane intake that works great for a quick-to-rev- small block. Some of the aftermarket ones stick up a bit higher and air cleaner clearence can become an issue with a stock, flat hood.
I'd stay with a small carb.....600cfm or less....with mild jetting. You'll need the factory 4bbl kickdown linkage (again not too easy to find) or an aftermarket cable setup that most of the performance companies have.
Duals with an X pipe is great. The trans crossmember is only setup for a single exhaust so if you want the pipes to hug tight to the bottom of the car, you'll need to notch it or buy one that's already been done.
The rear end gears are something you'll have to decide. For mileage and cruising speed/RPM, a high gear like a 2.76 is desireable. For drag racing, a low gear is needed. Everything in the middle is a compromise. If you plan on driving any distance on the freeway, I wouldn't go lower than a 3.55. If you have a manual transmission, I would use a 3.23 or lower unless you want to put in clutches every couple of years. If it will never see the freeway, gears in the 4's is a lot of fun at a stop light! Decide on wheels and tires first as they will effect what gear ratio you pick. Putting on short tires is like lowering the gear ratio and making traction worse....taller tire, like raising the ratio and improving traction given the same rubber compound tires. Unless you like the low profile look, I like to get the biggest tire that will fit in the wheel well without rubbing or having to cut the car. Mine will handle a 235/70/14 or a 215/60/14 without a problem but you may have to measure to make sure yours will take that size. There again, decide on which rear end you're going to use, then take the measurements. If you're going to use a stock width like you have now, those sizes should work.
Have fun!
Mark
 
cavemanmoron said:
First step add dual exhaust off the stock manifolds. I suggest replace the starter with a small 1995 era one while the exhaust is out of the way.

you want even more power, add several more cubic inches.
Thats what I did. ;)

a 2bll 318 circa 1969 is 230 hp, with 340llbs torque
take a 318, add a cam, and duals and a 4bbl your at 260-280 hp easy.

Torque is what moves your car. ;)

Thats with 87 octane pump gas.

1964/65 specs
273 3.630 3.310 180 @ 4200 260 @ 1600 8.70 : 1 2bbl
273 3.630 3.310 235 @ 5200 280 @ 4000 10.50 : 1 4bbl

1969 318
318 3.910 3.310 230 @ 4400 340 @ 2400 9.20 : 1 2bbl
Click to expand...

Definitely staying away from an engine swap and sticking with the original 273 in it . . . runs great now . . . was rebuilt and runs solid . . . if the stock motor ever blows, then I will move up to a 318 or even a 340. Looking to do what I can with the stock 273 V8 engine. I know I will need a cam . . . now trying to figure out which one.

Now from the specs above . . . are you saying that I will add 55 hp moving from the stock original 2bbl on there now by adding a 4bbl? If so, wow! Shopping for the right one now!

I am in the Atlanta, GA area.

Starter is new info . . . a modern ignition system has been suggested.

Again, making a list, checking it twice (needing part numbers), and then going to buy whether or not I have been naughty or nice!

Wanting to bolt on the stock 273 as much as possible for top end and torque . . . kind of being all you can be on a 1964 273. Not a very grandiose vision, but I just can not bring my self to rip the true survivor apart just for more HP . . . not in my heart . . . for now. Just doesn't seem right on this one . . . especially since it is a running survivor.
 
All the power won't be worth a dang if you can't stop. First thing I'd do would be upgrade the brakes by adding discs - either Kelsey Hayes (SBP) or convert to 73-76 LBP. There are numerous threads on each. Then add the power adders and have fun!!!
 
bamacuda said:
Welcome aboard! You will love the FABO family here! As I read your post, I was noting the same 273 error. I may end up with an extra formula s sway bar along with the lower control arms with tabs to allow you to get some extra handling. As far a intakes go, the original four barrel intake will have have to come from a 65 as the bolt holes are a different angle and are smaller. An edelbrock d4b or ld340 (will need slight mods) are good replacements and are a lot lighter than the cast iron. Not sure if you are wanting to stay all stock. A 600 CFM carter (edelbrock) carb is a good choice. I am currently building a 273 commando and am about to put back in my car. Good luck, keep posting and you will get lots of great advice, support, parts, etc.
bamacuda
aka David
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome, David!

Definitely wanting to stay stock with the engine, but bolt on as much as possible, including a cam . . . and know I will need a rear end change.

Now on the hunt for a 4bbl from a . . . what are you suggesting . . . a 1965 Dart with a 273? The Edelbrock d4b sounds good . . . is that off a 65?

So, I am supposing correctly, that I cannot just go to the edelbrock site and order up a d4b . . . no longer in production?

Would the 600 CFM carter (edelbrock) carb on my 64 273?

And . . . good luck on the commando rebuild! Used the search function and see numberous of the 273 commandos being tweaked!

Thanks!

Billy
 
65 Dartman said:
All the power won't be worth a dang if you can't stop. First thing I'd do would be upgrade the brakes by adding discs - either Kelsey Hayes (SBP) or convert to 73-76 LBP. There are numerous threads on each. Then add the power adders and have fun!!!
Click to expand...

Definitely will need to beef the brakes . . . I like the non-conversion Kelsey Hayes solution! A non-conversion keeps it simple for me.

Thank you!
 
cudamark said:
If you're just going to do some bolt-on stuff right now, I'd stick to mild. Check with the cam manufacturers for their specs/performance charts to see what sounds like your desires without having to notch pistons and changing valve springs, etc. Don't go crazy here....something in the low 4's is plenty. It's real easy to overcam a stock engine. The factory 4bbl engine from '65-7 used a .435 lift which worked great. I've used the ones from Isky with good success. Their specs are real close to the stock 4bbl. ones.
The original style 4bbl intake for your heads only came from the factory one year (1965) so they are a bit hard to find. There are aftermarket ones out there too so you may have better luck finding one of those. The originals are a low profile, single plane intake that works great for a quick-to-rev- small block. Some of the aftermarket ones stick up a bit higher and air cleaner clearence can become an issue with a stock, flat hood.
I'd stay with a small carb.....600cfm or less....with mild jetting. You'll need the factory 4bbl kickdown linkage (again not too easy to find) or an aftermarket cable setup that most of the performance companies have.
Duals with an X pipe is great. The trans crossmember is only setup for a single exhaust so if you want the pipes to hug tight to the bottom of the car, you'll need to notch it or buy one that's already been done.
The rear end gears are something you'll have to decide. For mileage and cruising speed/RPM, a high gear like a 2.76 is desireable. For drag racing, a low gear is needed. Everything in the middle is a compromise. If you plan on driving any distance on the freeway, I wouldn't go lower than a 3.55. If you have a manual transmission, I would use a 3.23 or lower unless you want to put in clutches every couple of years. If it will never see the freeway, gears in the 4's is a lot of fun at a stop light! Decide on wheels and tires first as they will effect what gear ratio you pick. Putting on short tires is like lowering the gear ratio and making traction worse....taller tire, like raising the ratio and improving traction given the same rubber compound tires. Unless you like the low profile look, I like to get the biggest tire that will fit in the wheel well without rubbing or having to cut the car. Mine will handle a 235/70/14 or a 215/60/14 without a problem but you may have to measure to make sure yours will take that size. There again, decide on which rear end you're going to use, then take the measurements. If you're going to use a stock width like you have now, those sizes should work.
Have fun!
Mark
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mark . . . here is what I have got from your advice . . .

1. I will go with the simple cam solution . . . no notching! Not my gift set.

2. The 65 4bbl carb would be best . . . but since it is a summer project and short time to find, I may have to compromise and go with aftermarket . . . 600cff or less with a little jetting . . . . then, knowing the air cleaner may be an issue.

3. Remember that the factory 4bbl kickdown linkage or an aftermarket cable setup

4. I will look for pre-notched exhaust and definitely want to do the x-pipe.

5. Plan for this to turn into a four day a week commuter into Atlanta a couple of days a week in good weather . . . that means 15 miles on 2 lane country twisties then 15 on an 8 lane interstate to get to work (and of course back again). So, a mid gearing solution best for me. Keeping the 4 speed manual in it . . . so 3.55 seems the best compromise?

6. No low profile look for me, but those 13 inch tires, wheels, and hubcaps will have to go in storage. Going to go with the 8 3/4 rear end . . . desire the tallest, widest tires and wheels I can. I will just have to measure after the rear end goes in and order from there . . . like tall and wide as possible, but with no rubbing!

Since there are no other 64 Dart GT 273s around my area, just going to trust blind on the exhaust and xpipe . . . any specific suggestions? I am not a tuner sound guy, want as low and growly as I could get . . . I know it is not a muscle car, but like a mini-muscle sound would be great . . . suggestions?

Thanks, Mark . . . I can't get into the shop until Tuesday, but I can start the carb search!

Open to more coaching in this thread!!! And I appreciate it from all!
 
You've gotten some very good advice here. I think most people replace their original AFB four barrel carbs with an Edelbrock but I can't help with the exact part number. To put on dual exhaust you'll need to cut a notch in the trans support, they originally have a notch but only on one side. Also, the 55 hp advantage of the "Commando" 273 isn't solely due to the carb but also cam, higher comprersion ratio and a few other details.
 
SSVDP said:
You've gotten some very good advice here. I think most people replace their original AFB four barrel carbs with an Edelbrock but I can't help with the exact part number. To put on dual exhaust you'll need to cut a notch in the trans support, they originally have a notch but only on one side. Also, the 55 hp advantage of the "Commando" 273 isn't solely due to the carb but also cam, higher comprersion ratio and a few other details.
Click to expand...

Thanks, SSVDP . . .

Will be content to notch the trans support . . . my friend with the shop where I am housing the car for work has those skills.

Looking now for the 4bbl off a 65 . . . and trying to identify the right number on an Edelbrock in case I can't find a 65 carb . . . gathering part numbers now and gathering all the parts as soon as I can . . . plates today . . . . standard tune and fluid changes starting tomorrow morning!

And looking for the right cam number to buy new and put in now too.

So, anybody got the right number on the Edelbrock carb and the right cam?
 
Welcome! Looks like everyone covered your questions well enough, now let's see a starting point pic of this puppy!
 
I would swap the heads with a set of later model 302 castings(85 Diplomat) Shave them to up the compression. Make sure they shave the intake side too so you don't have to have the intake shaved and get a e-brock Performer intake. 550 -600 CFM 4 bbl, upgrade the cam, headers are nice if you can find em. For the money, I would skip the 8 3/4 and either get a 8 1/4 Mopar or 8" Ford rearend. Blow the money saved on a MSD ignition system.
I wouldn't go dual exhaust it you can't get away from the factory exhaust manifolds. No point.

Lokar sales a cable kickdown that could replace the factory linkage.
 
This is my set-up on my 64 Dart vert.

.030 273
Comp Cam grind to E4 Isky cam specs
920 heads with 1.82 stainless intake valves, 1.60 stainless exhaust
D4B intake with Carter 625 cfm carb
MP Electronic Ignition
hipo 273 single exhaust into 2 chamber flowmaster and stock Hipo resonator.

Dart on Friday Cruise.jpg
 
here is my set up for now, runs great. I run a newer style 833 4 spd , new drive shaft,. The older set up had a two piece ball and trunion in place of the front universal.

273 Commando (10.5:1), Edelbrock vacume secondary 600 CFM 4 barrel, (I have a D4B but the stock 4brl manifold works nice for now), You will need to modify any newer after market manifold because of the bolt angle your early cylinder head requires ( you can check the head you have by the casting numbers). I have dual exhaust, solid lifter, mild solid cam .468 lift. (Comp cams20-246-4) and a Mopar Electronic Ignition . The ignition makes a big difference for easier starting and timing adj. (no points to worry about). Get some good plug wires as well.
Make sure you have a good V8 rad in there. I put a 22" rad in mine from a 318 car and it makes a huge difference . The car barley makes it to 170. You will need to measure for a new fan spacer and make sure you opening is big enough to us up all of the larger core. I think on a 64 there might be some mods needed. Some of the early slant 6 rads are 19 inches and have an offset mounting bracket so the fan cant pull as much air to the front of the motor.

I Have 8 ¾ 3:91 SG rear end as well as an open 3:23 set up. Look for a 489 casting for the center if you can but they are getting pricier by the minute. A 742 or 741 casting are fine for what you have. I 've got a Front disc brake set up for the car with the 4 piston KH calipars.(68 GTS). You will also need a different master as well as a proportioning valve for the disk front/drum rear bias. You will get 10" drums with the 8 3/4 to replace your 9" drums.
I am debating going to a large bolt pattern front brakes from a 73 and up ABody that alot of guys do because of wheel selection limitations and strength but this will only ever be a street car and the KH set up is cool. I also don't need to swap the upper A arms with this set up. I also got a deal on spindles,hubs,calipars, and SBP rotars so wtf.
Grab a smaller starter from a scrap yard (any early 90 s and up 5.2 is good). it will save a ton of head aches when your starter pooches. I just found that out. They are torqier and easier to re and re. I am able to fit a 245-60 -14 under my car with no mods.but that seems rare so I would measure for sure.

The main thing is have fun and enjoy our hobby. Before long you will be hoplessly addicted like the rest of us. I've had a couple of Harleys. Love them but when my son was born I felt like sticking around in one piece. I returned to my Mopar roots. You have made a good decision.
 
Forgot, you also might want to swap in a solid state voltage regulator. pt #VR706 (duralast) , I did . no adjustment no hassles.
 
65Vart said:
Forgot, you also might want to swap in a solid state voltage regulator. pt #VR706 (duralast) , I did . no adjustment no hassles.
Click to expand...

Thanks for both post, 65Vart! Part numbers!!! You gave me part numbers!!! I love part numbers that come with great advice!

I sincerely appreciate the depth of your posts and the part numbers!

Wow! I love this forum already! Every post has added a piece of the puzzle!
 
Nice, scoot, dart4forte . . . looks very familiar to mine, only I am black with red stripe.

I have the day off and am heading to the shop to spend the day working doing a tune up, fluid change, and strategy sessions for attack plan and parts finding and purchase! Printing out this thread and heading out--an hour from where I live, but my friend has the shop and coaching gifts!

I will post some pics tonight of the new ride.
 
Thought I would throw in a quick bad pic from my cell today . . . not much of a pic, but something!

IMAG0128.jpg
 
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