My home inspection of Speedmaster heads

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What would be a nice comparison at the track is OOTB SM, then bolt on OOTB ProMaxx, both unported. Be great to see actual ET slip difference.
 
318willrun said:
What would be a nice comparison at the track is OOTB SM, then bolt on OOTB ProMaxx, both unported. Be great to see actual ET slip difference.
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Don't forget to toss in all the variables... Same track prep same atmospheric pressure... Blah blah blah...
 
j par said:
Don't forget to toss in all the variables... Same track prep same atmospheric pressure... Blah blah blah...
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yeah, give or take a tenth. I know if I'm there on a hot & humid day vs cool dry day, I don't need a weather channel to tell me that. :D
 
318willrun said:
yeah, give or take a tenth. I know if I'm there on a hot & humid day vs cool dry day, I don't need a weather channel to tell me that. :D
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I was at the track one day and thought I'd blown a cylinder or something... I couldn't do anything under a 12-second quarter-mile and it was driving me nuts pass after pass.. I got home and started reading about atmospheric pressure and got a measurement from the track that day and it said I was supposed to be doing 12 seconds or more..
 
j par said:
I was at the track one day and thought I'd blown a cylinder or something... I couldn't do anything under a 12-second quarter-mile and it was driving me nuts pass after pass.. I got home and started reading about atmospheric pressure and got a measurement from the track that day and it said I was supposed to be doing 12 seconds or more..
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As long as the car hooks, average hot and humid summer day vs average cool fall day is usually about 2 tenth average difference at the same track. Head wind or tail wind obviously plays a part too.
  • Usually my track is hot and humid with a slight head wind on days I'm able to make it down there for a pass.... usually.. LOL
 
RustyRatRod said:
I always like to "wait and see". You never know. That's why I sit back and laugh when all the gurus post paragraph after paragraph of what they read out of books rather than real world experience. I also find it funny that they are always the ones who "seem" to have "hands on" experience with what seems to be everything under the sun. HA!
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Wait and see = trial and error. Learn from it, read books and way the opinions of guru's.
One thing about guru's, get them around the table and most times they will reach common ground.
 
PRH said:
Take the SM head, recut the seats, back cut the valves, blend the bowls....... you should end up with the same thing as the Maxx unported head.
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318willrun said:
Those look NICE!!!!!
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I was hoping that would be the reaction. I've cleaned the carbon out of one chamber and I thought it looked pretty good. The intake valve isn't cut on the backside, but it is pretty flat, not tulip shaped.
 
j par said:
Yes I've already said that as far as pbr's thread goes.. by the time a professional has done that much work which means someone has done it and has the money to make a mistake and get it fixed and learn how to do it right... I believe these are for the budget-minded person or for the professional who can turn them into something with their on labor.. I 100% agree that "IF" I would have needed this much out of them I would have waited till promaxx had a sale and got them at the same price as going through having them played with... But how do we know until someone did it... As PBR said it's getting to be a lost art but there's a reason... I understand how it running and I love to do things as I've said I did most of the porting on my heads as well.. all it taught me was I don't want to do that again LOL what a mess...
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The thing is...and PRH already said the very thing I'm about to say just in different words...if you are careful and if you pay attention and if you don't get greedy, a guy in his shop, with a grinder HE is comfortable with (I refuse to use an electric grinder...I can but I don't like it...too dang big and heavy and when you are grinding for hours on end, the size and weight just don't cut it, plus I get much better results with an air grinder as I feel I have more control...but I digress) you can pretty easily get 85, maybe 90% of the results of anyone else.

It starts with the valve job (for me) and everything after that is based on that valve job. The throat, the bowl, the chamber. Once you have the VJ in, the rest is using your head, taking your time and not getting greedy.

A few nights after work and maybe a Sunday if you really want to put some lipstick on the pig and you'd be surprised what a guy can do at home.

One thing that always makes it tough for me (again, I'm betting PBR, PRH, MO and maybe even 318hasvalvethatwillflyandpokeyoureyeout can agree, except he does quite a few videos and stuff so he may not find this true) is I've done this for so long, and done so much of it, I do things and don't know I actually do them. For example, I was helping a guy shape some stuff on his heads. I did some of the work and then let him copy it. I told him what I use for tooling, but it's not the same for everyone. I use some burrs I doubt any one else uses because they are funky. As long as the result is the same, it doesn't really matter how you get there.

Anyway, he brought a head back over and wanted to see how I did got a certain shape. What I did I had no idea I was doing. I was actually manipulating grinder speed, tool pressure and angle without even knowing I was doing it. I could literally slide my thumb over against the little valve I was using to control the speed of the grinder without ever slowing down.

When he asked me about it, I was a bit shocked. I had no idea I did that. Had no idea when I started doing it. Have no idea how long I've been doing it. That's what's hard to teach. And the only way to learn it is to do it yourself. And you may never do exactly what I do or how I do it but you can still get the same results.

I was also only changing the tool angle when I was changing tool speed.

My point is that in head porting, like many other things, there are more ways than one to get the same results.

One of my best friends came by my house one night after work to use my flow bench. He never really paid attention to the tools and burrs I use to port with.

He looked at my stuff and said, and this is about as close a quote as I can remember from 2000..."what is all that broken, screwed up dull junk you are using to port with????" He couldn't believe what I was using. The next day I went and looked at what he was using. We didn't have single burr or tool the same, but it was hard to tell our port work apart.

Run your new heads for a year or two. Then pull them off, freshen up the VJ and do a little grinding. You can hit the 90% mark pretty easily, and rather quickly.

That last 10% is a real mother bear to do. To get that last 10% will take almost as long as the first 90% has taken you. That is when you are picking the fly poop out of the pepper.
 
gzig5 said:
I was hoping that would be the reaction. I've cleaned the carbon out of one chamber and I thought it looked pretty good. The intake valve isn't cut on the backside, but it is pretty flat, not tulip shaped.
Click to expand...


Is that a radius valve job on the intake seat? Hard to see in the pictures.
 
yellow rose said:
The thing is...and PRH already said the very thing I'm about to say just in different words...if you are careful and if you pay attention and if you don't get greedy, a guy in his shop, with a grinder HE is comfortable with (I refuse to use an electric grinder...I can but I don't like it...too dang big and heavy and when you are grinding for hours on end, the size and weight just don't cut it, plus I get much better results with an air grinder as I feel I have more control...but I digress) you can pretty easily get 85, maybe 90% of the results of anyone else.

It starts with the valve job (for me) and everything after that is based on that valve job. The throat, the bowl, the chamber. Once you have the VJ in, the rest is using your head, taking your time and not getting greedy.

A few nights after work and maybe a Sunday if you really want to put some lipstick on the pig and you'd be surprised what a guy can do at home.

One thing that always makes it tough for me (again, I'm betting PBR, PRH, MO and maybe even 318hasvalvethatwillflyandpokeyoureyeout can agree, except he does quite a few videos and stuff so he may not find this true) is I've done this for so long, and done so much of it, I do things and don't know I actually do them. For example, I was helping a guy shape some stuff on his heads. I did some of the work and then let him copy it. I told him what I use for tooling, but it's not the same for everyone. I use some burrs I doubt any one else uses because they are funky. As long as the result is the same, it doesn't really matter how you get there.

Anyway, he brought a head back over and wanted to see how I did got a certain shape. What I did I had no idea I was doing. I was actually manipulating grinder speed, tool pressure and angle without even knowing I was doing it. I could literally slide my thumb over against the little valve I was using to control the speed of the grinder without ever slowing down.

When he asked me about it, I was a bit shocked. I had no idea I did that. Had no idea when I started doing it. Have no idea how long I've been doing it. That's what's hard to teach. And the only way to learn it is to do it yourself. And you may never do exactly what I do or how I do it but you can still get the same results.

I was also only changing the tool angle when I was changing tool speed.

My point is that in head porting, like many other things, there are more ways than one to get the same results.

One of my best friends came by my house one night after work to use my flow bench. He never really paid attention to the tools and burrs I use to port with.

He looked at my stuff and said, and this is about as close a quote as I can remember from 2000..."what is all that broken, screwed up dull junk you are using to port with????" He couldn't believe what I was using. The next day I went and looked at what he was using. We didn't have single burr or tool the same, but it was hard to tell our port work apart.

Run your new heads for a year or two. Then pull them off, freshen up the VJ and do a little grinding. You can hit the 90% mark pretty easily, and rather quickly.

That last 10% is a real mother bear to do. To get that last 10% will take almost as long as the first 90% has taken you. That is when you are picking the fly poop out of the pepper.
Click to expand...
I hear you loud and clear about the experience. I've seen it in so many videos I've watched doing things in my home. Like when I did the Schluter Kerdi System and built my tile shower. I watch the videos but off video you heard it but you didn't see it the way they manipulated two trowels at once instead of just one dipping it into the bucket but I had to pay close attention. Then there was the video rebuilding the 904 transmission where he called you a bunch of rookies as he popped the pump out from the inside without using the pullers and all that crap and did it in like two seconds flat that you can barely barely see it. I had to keep replaying and replaying the video like you said the little tricks of the trade that come to you without even looking twice. I'm a skilled Craftsmen and I know there's tricks to everything...
And that's exactly what I plan to do run these for a season or two and then get a little bold with them after they've proven themselves... I like what was suggestion at this power level for rookies is getting a good valve job and touching them up a little bit.... But I'll never know what that does for me unless I run them more or less out of the box with a little blue collar going through...
 
I like somewhat dull burs, as you can slide alone making the shape you want without a "WHOOPS" Canyon in on spot.

ruffing in a port, all the small stuff you know needs to go.....The sharper the better.
I have a couple ball burs but, them dambb things get me into more trouble them they get me out of!!!
 
Cudafever said:
I like somewhat dull burs, as you can slide alone making the shape you want without a "WHOOPS" Canyon in on spot.

ruffing in a port, all the small stuff you know needs to go.....The sharper the better.
I have a couple ball burs but, them dambb things get me into more trouble them they get me out of!!!
Click to expand...


Yup. A dull burr can save your buttocks. Been there many times. That's why I almost never get rid of a burr. I've had them go full helicopter on me. I just shorten the shank and tell everyone I customs made that for a special use!!!
 
yellow rose said:
One thing that always makes it tough for me (again, I'm betting PBR, PRH, MO and maybe even 318hasvalvethatwillflyandpokeyoureyeout can agree, except he does quite a few videos and stuff so he may not find this true) is I've done this for so long, and done so much of it, I do things and don't know I actually do them.
.
Click to expand...
ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I've had to delete videos because I miss things that I do without even thinking about it. I know I only harvest about 70% of the gains that a guy like PHR or whoever may get. But the gains I get are almost free, save a few stones, just have to trade my time for it. However, I've done enough heads that I'm honestly burnt out in it. I just want to buy a better performer head now.
 
yellow rose said:
The thing is...and PRH already said the very thing I'm about to say just in different words...if you are careful and if you pay attention and if you don't get greedy, a guy in his shop, with a grinder HE is comfortable with (I refuse to use an electric grinder...I can but I don't like it...too dang big and heavy and when you are grinding for hours on end, the size and weight just don't cut it, plus I get much better results with an air grinder as I feel I have more control...but I digress) you can pretty easily get 85, maybe 90% of the results of anyone else.

It starts with the valve job (for me) and everything after that is based on that valve job. The throat, the bowl, the chamber. Once you have the VJ in, the rest is using your head, taking your time and not getting greedy.

A few nights after work and maybe a Sunday if you really want to put some lipstick on the pig and you'd be surprised what a guy can do at home.

One thing that always makes it tough for me (again, I'm betting PBR, PRH, MO and maybe even 318hasvalvethatwillflyandpokeyoureyeout can agree, except he does quite a few videos and stuff so he may not find this true) is I've done this for so long, and done so much of it, I do things and don't know I actually do them. For example, I was helping a guy shape some stuff on his heads. I did some of the work and then let him copy it. I told him what I use for tooling, but it's not the same for everyone. I use some burrs I doubt any one else uses because they are funky. As long as the result is the same, it doesn't really matter how you get there.

Anyway, he brought a head back over and wanted to see how I did got a certain shape. What I did I had no idea I was doing. I was actually manipulating grinder speed, tool pressure and angle without even knowing I was doing it. I could literally slide my thumb over against the little valve I was using to control the speed of the grinder without ever slowing down.

When he asked me about it, I was a bit shocked. I had no idea I did that. Had no idea when I started doing it. Have no idea how long I've been doing it. That's what's hard to teach. And the only way to learn it is to do it yourself. And you may never do exactly what I do or how I do it but you can still get the same results.

I was also only changing the tool angle when I was changing tool speed.

My point is that in head porting, like many other things, there are more ways than one to get the same results.

One of my best friends came by my house one night after work to use my flow bench. He never really paid attention to the tools and burrs I use to port with.

He looked at my stuff and said, and this is about as close a quote as I can remember from 2000..."what is all that broken, screwed up dull junk you are using to port with????" He couldn't believe what I was using. The next day I went and looked at what he was using. We didn't have single burr or tool the same, but it was hard to tell our port work apart.

Run your new heads for a year or two. Then pull them off, freshen up the VJ and do a little grinding. You can hit the 90% mark pretty easily, and rather quickly.

That last 10% is a real mother bear to do. To get that last 10% will take almost as long as the first 90% has taken you. That is when you are picking the fly poop out of the pepper.
Click to expand...


When we go camping i like to be next to a small stream. My wife just don't get auto motive and the simple love of a car.
So to here its a great place to keep a watermelon cool and i love the sound of the water bubbling over the rocks(and i do)
But i can spend hours Tossing leave in the stream to see what path the water take them.
 
yellow rose said:
Yup. A dull burr can save your buttocks. Been there many times. That's why I almost never get rid of a burr. I've had them go full helicopter on me. I just shorten the shank and tell everyone I customs made that for a special use!!!
Click to expand...
The helicopter deal is familiar!, I have a couple bits like that. Dull ferrous bits for everything including aluminum (with some cutting oil or wd40 etc.) and a makita electric grinder full speed all the time-I just lighten the pressure I am putting down on some spots. It takes some time to get used to running an electric wide open and not screw up **** lol (especially controlling the chatter) but for me it's faster and has a better port finish and just works.

As you know I have not ported even close to as many sets as you and some of the other guys have but I have done more than enough to realize it sucks and am not eager to do any more $300 dollar port jobs out of the garage anymore. My best set was a set of amc edelbrock heads and they gave some really good gains with minimal effort plus I dig the amc 360/401 stuff.
 
lead69 said:
The helicopter deal is familiar!, I have a couple bits like that. Dull ferrous bits for everything including aluminum (with some cutting oil or wd40 etc.) and a makita electric grinder full speed all the time-I just lighten the pressure I am putting down on some spots. It takes some time to get used to running an electric wide open and not screw up **** lol (especially controlling the chatter) but for me it's faster and has a better port finish and just works.

As you know I have not ported even close to as many sets as you and some of the other guys have but I have done more than enough to realize it sucks and am not eager to do any more $300 dollar port jobs out of the garage anymore. My best set was a set of amc edelbrock heads and they gave some really good gains with minimal effort plus I dig the amc 360/401 stuff.
Click to expand...


LOL. Back when you were younger you'd grab a grinder and get after it just because. Just like me.

Nowadays, I just pass on cast iron and only do aluminum if I get paid. The thrill is gone for sure.
 
Hopefully...... if you were thinking of buying some SM heads, you got them during the sale.
The current non-sale price for the cnc ported assembled heads is within about $200 of the TF heads.

Guess you’ll have to wait and see if there’s a New Year’s Day or maybe a president’s day sale if you’re looking for some sort of deal.
 
really, that sucks
I thought long and hard about buy 1 just for experimentation. but i controlled my temptation.
 
Right...... but they often have a 25-30% off sale.

30% off the $1850 price is still a $550 savings.

The current price on the bare unported head is $365/ea
 
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I wonder how much old stock they still have?
the newes head i seen broadcasted was 2017
 
Maybe next year the Black Friday sale will be 41% off :usflag:

I haven’t seen the 210cc BB head on their site for a while now.

I think they got cleaned out of those reasonably quickly.

They were actually a better deal than the SB head imo.
 
yellow rose said:
Is that a radius valve job on the intake seat? Hard to see in the pictures.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what that means? If you mean the seat is a radius profile instead of distinct angles, no. It looks like there are three or four distinct angles on the intake seat. I might be able to get a better angle on the pic if you can direct me.
 
gzig5 said:
I'm not sure what that means? If you mean the seat is a radius profile instead of distinct angles, no. It looks like there are three or four distinct angles on the intake seat. I might be able to get a better angle on the pic if you can direct me.
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Ok thanks. That was what I was asking. I just couldn't tell from the picture of there were angles under the 45.
 
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