Need A833 advice

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ChargerST said:
The higher the gear the faster the M/S will be spinning. Think about it this way...
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Thanks ChargerST - you confirmed what I basically came up with last night. It also correlates with the behavior I noticed when driving. I didn't drive far, but when I did try to accelerate in 3rd, it didn't want to speed up! I believe I was fighting this cone/synchro interference.

I will pull the transmission and then I'll need to figure out what's causing the sticking. I wanted to be driving this thing by now! Ah well - that is the way of life.
 
Jim64 said:
I might be mis-reading your last sentence, but If I'm not, I believe it to be wrong. As long as the engine is running and the clutch is engaged, all of the gears will be spinning in a constant direction, whether the car is moving forwards, backwards, or stopped in neutral. The input gear and the M/S gears will all turn in the same direction as the engine, and the counter-shaft will spin in the opposite direction.
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You are correct on both counts. Here is the quote;
AJ/FormS said:
As it happens, Chrysler made those gears helically cut, so then, the spinning input gear drives the M/S gears in one direction when going forward, and in the opposite direction when the wheels are doing the driving.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
It's just a thought........
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What I meant was that the THRUST is in opposite directions, depending on from which end the M/S is being powered.
 
AJ/FormS said:
You are correct on both counts. Here is the quote;


What I meant was that the THRUST is in opposite directions, depending on from which end the M/S is being powered.
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Got it! Thanks for the clarification.

With luck this weekend I'll have the transmission out and can let everyone know the cause.
 
I'm learning here too guys, because I have never, in the thousands of manual transmissions that I have built, seen a synchro just up and grab a gear.
>Since the driveshaft is off, we know there is a problem in the box.
> since the brass actually bites the cone, the brass is fine.
> Since OP has checked the springs and struts, and I'm pretty sure that the hub will fit and work installed either side to front; we know the synchronizer is assembled correctly.
> the M/S is fixed in position, and no mention is made of it wobbling,
> The 1-2 slider is universal, and only fits one way

I'm leaning towards the idea that there is nothing physically wrong with any one piece of the synchronizer unit, nor it's assembly.

Now, we do know that there were two different synchronizer assemblies used in the A833; an early and a late. And that either unit can be used, in it's entirety. The struts and hubs are a matched set, and you can't mix them up. And, while the sliders will physically fit on either hub, they will not work at all on the wrong struts, because the struts will not be properly captured. If someone did this, he would complain about gear-clash.
But; the late brass will actually fit in the early hubs, with the early struts, but the early struts are longer and narrower, and altho I have never assembled a hybrid unit like this, I don't think it is possible to actually install it like that. And I suspect that if it was possible, the brass would be out too far and attempting to grab both Low and Second simultaneously at all times.
I don't think that's possible.
More likely is that something else is going on that is new to me. And that is why;
I am
on the edge
of my seat.
lol
 
If that is a Passon 4 speed and you are having problems why haven't you called Passon? Well?

Before you call him though you need to check and record the runout in the bellhousing - you know where you check the centerline of the bellhousing against the centerline of the crank to see if it's within 0.003 tir of center. You did check didn't you? because that could be part of the problem. If you have not checked don't bother calling and wasting his time and ours
 
SixPaksRule said:
If that is a Passon 4 speed and you are having problems why haven't you called Passon? Well?

Before you call him though you need to check and record the runout in the bellhousing - you know where you check the centerline of the bellhousing against the centerline of the crank to see if it's within 0.003 tir of center. You did check didn't you? because that could be part of the problem. If you have not checked don't bother calling and wasting his time and ours
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Nice friendly reply and the way you put it so polite and eloquent... LOL.. you might as well just told him to F off...
 
j par said:
Overthinking and paranoia?...
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I dunno, man I rebuilt an A 833 with a Chilton manual and parts from Brewers, it wasn't that difficult.

I can only imagine, if everything went in correctly upon assembly that it could be improperly machined parts, or tolerances.

they out source the manufacturing to China etc.

however are the shift forks bent? what can be checked replaced without tearing the thing down again. I believe tearing it down right off the bat would be "paranoia" LOL!
 
Jim, could you shift the transmission into 2nd gear and video the internals while rotating the output shaft forward and backward? May help in your diagnosis. Did you buy the transmission from JP assembled or buy the gearset and assemble it yourself? Reason being a point brought up by AJ "The M/S rear bearing is specific to this trans. It is not likely that any bearing store will keep stock on the shelf. It is special as to the center-hole, and as to it's depth" That "depth" measurement, or "thickness" is an issue with A833 rear bearings (larger 308, not sure on the 307). Seems there are (were) 2 available, one is .825" thick and the other one is .795" thick. Supply of bearings with the correct thickness dried up a few years ago. Not sure if anyone has stepped up and filled in the gap yet. I don't necessilarily think this is your problem, just good information to know when working on an A833.
 
A different thickness bearing would take up the thrust clearance and make things "tight"...possibility:)
 
the mainshaft and extension are a matched set.
I suppose you could install a 307 bearinged M/S into the wider tail but the OD is a loose fit in the tail and you would be alerted right away as to the mistake, when the M/S started flopping around in there. But that still offers no insight as to the climbing brass.
The last wide-bearing I bought cost me over $135C and was special-ordered, taking a few weeks to arrive. And that was back in the mid 2000s..
 
Jeez - a lot of activity here!
Yes, I centered the bellhousing. It's definitely within tolerance.
Yes, the bearings are correct, and are correctly in place, and the correct size. (A 'thicker' bearing would not fit, and the snap ring fits snugly, as it should.)
I assembled this transmission by myself, from my old A-body transmission, an E-body with the Passon gearset, and a new retainer (from Passon) that allows for the larger snout.
Note that this problem arose while Jamie was at the Mopar Nats, so he was initially unreachable. I did call and leave a message; he returned my call yesterday morning. He let me know that there was a batch of gears that were on the snug side, and that he'd seen this before. He says it will work itself out, and recommended that I reassemble/lube it, and run it in reverse (with the wheels up) for a while to help the bits wear in.
 
Jim64 said:
Jeez - a lot of activity here!
Yes, I centered the bellhousing. It's definitely within tolerance.
Yes, the bearings are correct, and are correctly in place, and the correct size. (A 'thicker' bearing would not fit, and the snap ring fits snugly, as it should.)
I assembled this transmission by myself, from my old A-body transmission, an E-body with the Passon gearset, and a new retainer (from Passon) that allows for the larger snout.
Note that this problem arose while Jamie was at the Mopar Nats, so he was initially unreachable. I did call and leave a message; he returned my call yesterday morning. He let me know that there was a batch of gears that were on the snug side, and that he'd seen this before. He says it will work itself out, and recommended that I reassemble/lube it, and run it in reverse (with the wheels up) for a while to help the bits wear in.
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LOL...:popcorn:...
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I dunno, man I rebuilt an A 833 with a Chilton manual and parts from Brewers, it wasn't that difficult.

I can only imagine, if everything went in correctly upon assembly that it could be improperly machined parts, or tolerances.

they out source the manufacturing to China etc.

however are the shift forks bent? what can be checked replaced without tearing the thing down again. I believe tearing it down right off the bat would be "paranoia" LOL!
Click to expand...
Besides several automatic transmissions Mopar Chevy and Ford I also did my a833
A Chevy Muncie and currently reassembling a super t10 which I guess is getting pretty damn rare with a customer... So far batting a thousand...
If I may translate what Jamie said...
Stop the paranoia and run it LOL...
 
Or you can follow AJ's recommendation and tear the whole thing apart and put the synchros on a lathe LOL...
BAHAHA..
 
j par said:
Or you can follow AJ's recommendation and tear the whole thing apart and put the synchros on a lathe LOL...
BAHAHA..
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jpar, you can smirk all you like my junk shifts pretty fast. Besides; you have a reading/comprehension problem; I never said to put the synchros in a lathe. I said I put my gears on the lathe and polish the brake cones. Every good rebuilder will do that; it's standard procedure to make the cones flat and to deglaze them.
================
OP
Depending on what parts exactly are oversize, I wouldn't accept Jamie's solution. If it's as tight as you says it is,something in that box is IMO, junk. You can run it for hours and hours, on the jackstands and all it will do is overheat the oil and/or wear out the cluster rollers and possibly/ probably, the thrust washers. Meanwhile, what's lubing the possibly highly-stressed pilot rollers in the back of the input gear?
And even if it does "break in", if the gears are that soft, how long are they gonna last in useage?
But most of all, what makes the difference from rotating in one direction versus the other? The M/S and the cluster are parallel so it shouldn't make a hoot oh a difference.
Not to mention that there is no way that the brass can cause a synchronization is there? so forget shifting, or wear the brass out trying.

Send those parts back and let Jamie break them in; why let his problem be your problem?
Think about it.
 
Since I have so many experts on this thread - does anyone have a set of measurements for the mopar clutch forks? I'm looking for both overall length AND the distance between the center of the throwout bearing and the pivot point.
I have two forks and two pivots, and neither combination is perfect for what I need. With the aluminum bellhousing, the 10 1/2" long fork is too short, and the longer one I have is the right length, but the pivot that goes with it leaves the end of the fork too low. (I might just need a new pivot that will fit the longer fork but move it upwards a bit.)
 
Jim64 said:
Since I have so many experts on this thread - does anyone have a set of measurements for the mopar clutch forks? I'm looking for both overall length AND the distance between the center of the throwout bearing and the pivot point.
I have two forks and two pivots, and neither combination is perfect for what I need. With the aluminum bellhousing, the 10 1/2" long fork is too short, and the longer one I have is the right length, but the pivot that goes with it leaves the end of the fork too low. (I might just need a new pivot that will fit the longer fork but move it upwards a bit.)
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I remember I had issues with mine when I first set it up because I bought the whole thing as in the whole setup for speed bell housing linkage and all from one guy. Actually my wife drove 3 hours up in the Seattle to get it for me on a day I had to work and even at that I wouldn't have known by sight at that point what was right and what was wrong. I ended up with some kind of funky clutch fork. What I did was win on the Brewers website. And if I ever have a real problem like that with fitment and issues I called Brewers.. but generally the Brewers website has a lot of information on details like that.. I think mine was if I had the gas 12 and 1/2 in overall length but the pivot point I'm not sure it's been too long. That's my expert opinion LOL
 
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