Here we go again with with the 6-oclock 12 o-clock dots. Most people are not engine builders, just telling someone to degree the cam is like telling him to do brain surgery on someone's brain. Sure, he can learn to do both, but......
Need advice 360 timing chain cam/crank slightly off
- Thread starter 340challconv
- Start date
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Yeah, well, I'm done with this one. I know how I do mine and they turn out great.
Ironracer
Gearhead
I put my .484 purple shaft in straight up. I perhaps should have a degree it and Advance it a couple degrees to get more on the bottom I don't know. No info there.didnt come with a cam card
Thoughts........Don’t waste you’re time calling Mabbco with any more questions. You already are likely flagged as “we might have issues with this guy” by asking about the timing set and questioning things. Either do the correct thing as a few here have told you to do or......do what they’ve told you! Read, re-read on how to centerline a cam. Acquire the equipment and practice with it or spend a little and take it to someone who (knows) can check it for you. Rest easy knowing it’s either ok or corrected. Assemble engine etc etc.
That’s my thoughts
Ironracer
Gearhead
On the lifter thread that's current Clay Smith racing has a degree wheel dial indicator with the magnetic base and some checking lifters for like $119 bucks.Thoughts........Don’t waste you’re time calling Mabbco with any more questions. You already are likely flagged as “we might have issues with this guy” by asking about the timing set and questioning things. Either do the correct thing as a few here have told you to do or......do what they’ve told you! Read, re-read on how to centerline a cam. Acquire the equipment and practice with it or spend a little and take it to someone who (knows) can check it for you. Rest easy knowing it’s either ok or corrected. Assemble engine etc etc.
That’s my thoughts
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
So it sounds like he isn’t sure where to install the cam.Thoughts........Don’t waste you’re time calling Mabbco with any more questions. You already are likely flagged as “we might have issues with this guy” by asking about the timing set and questioning things. Either do the correct thing as a few here have told you to do or......do what they’ve told you! Read, re-read on how to centerline a cam. Acquire the equipment and practice with it or spend a little and take it to someone who (knows) can check it for you. Rest easy knowing it’s either ok or corrected. Assemble engine etc etc.
That’s my thoughts
So let’s open that can lol.
Install it at 106? 104?
Hmm...102°...or maybe even 100° LOL
No problem with degreeing the cam as being the most accurate way to do it, but I put a straight edge from the middle of the crank bolt to the middle of the cam bolt (picture, post #1), and it sure looks to me like the lower dot is off to the right (our right), not centered, and that if it were centered, it might line up with the dot on the cam gear.
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pishta
I know I'm right....
Poly timing right out the 60 manual. They dont even mention TDC as its a given with the keyway. They say to line up the gears within the unmounted chain DOT TO DOT and then rotate (as a set) the lower cog to line up with the keyway (top cog be damned!) and then rotate the CAM to match the keyway in the upper cog and bolt her up. Let it land where it may but if you rotate the crank now to dot up, the cam cog will be dot straight down, or DOT straight up but either is gonna be correct, Dot to Dot is easier to visualize.
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah…isn’t there a trick where you can dbl check icl with a straight edge on the lifters on the exh and int lobes.
Rmoore
Well-Known Member
Degree your cam , all this goes away … No guessing, no not knowing…. If you don’t know how to degree a camshaft, find a local guy that does…. Will make a remarkable difference in the way the motor runs !! Without question you have to do this, don’t care what the manufacturer says ! Good luck with your engine Sir !
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
It's been a long time since I've put together a engine. But I remember putting the crank gear at 12 O'clock and the cam gear at 6 O'clock
That makes it fire on cylinder #6, one more revolution on the crank brings it to:
Cam gear dot at 12 O'clock
Crank gear dot at 12 O'clock
Now it will fire on cylinder #1 that is up on compression stroke. This is where you put the distributor in to fire the #1 cylinder at TDC. Rotor pointing at front left (driver's side) intake manifold mount bolt.
mopardude318
Well-Known Member
It's the stamped circle just to the right of that red mark
Unless they got that timing set out of the bargain bin, failed QC, cam gear stamped incorrectly, way wrong bin. It's way off as installed.
Harbor freight dial indicator and base with the extensions. Solves the tool issue, print out a degree wheel or buy a cheap one.
1 In. Travel Machinists Dial Indicator
Amazing deals on this 1In Travel Machinists Dial Indicator at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
www.harborfreight.com
Multi-Position Magnetic Base with Fine Adjustment
Amazing deals on this Multi-Position Magnetic Base at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
www.harborfreight.com
Amazon has extension tips for around $5
Degree wheels can be had for about $20
Buy them, and return some of it if you never plan to use it again... shady but been done a lot over the years.
About $50 to do it right and verify installed centerline. I'd put it in at 108-110. Short duration cam and doesn't really need anymore help IMO.
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Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
I agree. You get it. Not everyone is going to degree a cam especially in a street application. I'm not saying that I don't agree with degreeing its just that some will take the quick and easy way out and the car will run. now with todays outsourced parts? who knows I've never had issues with dot to dot and I've assembled Ford, Mopar and GM long blocks for street applications. the dots dont go at 12 o clock its 6 oclock for the cam gear and 12 for the crank dots. Unles somethings has changed in the last feew years I havent built an engine since 2015 or so...
Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
I believe it is the big dot to the right that corresponds to a "tooth" that red dot is between "teeth" I would like to point out that , there are a few good books out there on assembling SB Mopar engines...
Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
You are correct sir. This is how the dots align on just about every US made old school small block.
I think you're right. I've never seen a crank sprocket marked way down low like the one that's at 12 o'clock. All of them I've seen are at between the teeth just like above your red dot. Good eye!
The issue is, if he uses that mark, it's gonna pull the piston well away from TDC. This is why I recommended finding true TDC and getting the degree wheel out, yet some of these guys on here just insist on plundering through the dark. This engine obviously has some incorrectly assembled and or incorrectly marked parts. It would be very easy to align everything properly and even remark that crank sprocket and get it all right by simply degreeing the thing. Anything less is just bad advice.
Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
well there shouldn't be 2 dots on it then eh? friggin Chinese parts I say ya?
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
I'm sure this would work to atleast check the timing set...
RELATING VALVE OVERLAP TO THE TIMING TAG - WHAT IS A SPLIT OVERLAP?
Split overlap means that the intake and exhaust valves are split or open an equal distance at T.D.C. Overlap. Of course, this also means that the intake and exhaust tappets are split or equally off their cam's base circle at T.D.C. Overlap. The cam would be advanced if the intake tappet was open further at T.D.C., and retarded if the exhaust tappet was open further at T.D.C.Cam Degreeing
I'm all good with dot to dot UNTIL, you get a series of stacking tolerance issues and a cam ends up installed 10-12* retarded. Crank gear keyway cut a little off, dowel hole/woodruff key in cam a little off, cam gear locating a little off, marking the cam gear on wrong tooth. Makes for loads of fun.
It's a simple procedure to insure that the cam is installed where it is supposed to be. The cam in the OP's deal is way off just from a visual, I wouldn't trust anything with regards to marks alone.
The cam gear at 6 or 12 oclock make no difference. It just changes the piston tdc/firing, distributor line up on fire up. On mopars SB cam gear 6 oclock = #6 firing, at 12 it's #1 firing
Make zero difference for install or function of the engine. Crank gear turns 2 times for every one time the cam turns.
It's a simple procedure to insure that the cam is installed where it is supposed to be. The cam in the OP's deal is way off just from a visual, I wouldn't trust anything with regards to marks alone.
The cam gear at 6 or 12 oclock make no difference. It just changes the piston tdc/firing, distributor line up on fire up. On mopars SB cam gear 6 oclock = #6 firing, at 12 it's #1 firing
Make zero difference for install or function of the engine. Crank gear turns 2 times for every one time the cam turns.
Your red dot is not the correct dot. Your crank is positioned correctly as with the crank keyway pointing to 2 O'clock. The correct dot is there pointing to 12 O'clock, just hard to see.
Compare the crank position and dot positions with yours, and this correctly timed engine pictured below.
Note the position of the keyway in the crankshaft.
Your setup:
Correct timing pictured below:
Notice the position of the "Eccentric" for the fuel pump on the cam gear, as another clue as to where the cam needs to be correctly positioned to.
(high side of the eccentric is like 7 O'clock, pointing down to the left)
iScamp
Well-Known Member
Yes. Never tried it myself but, there is an explanation on Uncle Tony's Garage. Youtube. Tony calls it the "keith black method."
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