Need help with UCA bushings

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mvh

mvh

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When I bolted up the UCAs, it seemed like they were ridiculously loose. I had had the Moog offset bushings installed, and the inner shell of these bushings seemed like a very loose fit on the cam bolts. With the nuts finger-tight there was almost an 1/8th inch of slop. What's with that? I thought it might have something to do with these washers that were left in the parts boxes -- four for each side, two big and two little. The holes in these washers are a snug fit on the cam bolts -- the problem is you can't fit even one washer between the flanges on the inner fender. The washers have a sort of raised lip around the inner hole that makes them too thick. They look as if the raised lip should socket inside the end of the bushing shell, but it doesn't fit. Neither does it fit in into the slotted hole in the frame. The instructions explained how to set the offset, but didn't mention these washers at all.
 
mvh said:
When I bolted up the UCAs, it seemed like they were ridiculously loose. I had had the Moog offset bushings installed, and the inner shell of these bushings seemed like a very loose fit on the cam bolts. With the nuts finger-tight there was almost an 1/8th inch of slop. What's with that? I thought it might have something to do with these washers that were left in the parts boxes -- four for each side, two big and two little. The holes in these washers are a snug fit on the cam bolts -- the problem is you can't fit even one washer between the flanges on the inner fender. The washers have a sort of raised lip around the inner hole that makes them too thick. They look as if the raised lip should socket inside the end of the bushing shell, but it doesn't fit. Neither does it fit in into the slotted hole in the frame. The instructions explained how to set the offset, but didn't mention these washers at all.
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I noticed the same thing...nobody has been able to explain this slop issue to me and yet I read all kinds of literature on them about how great they are. I
took them back and got the stockers. I read somewhere that the offset part of the rubber is so thin, that it doesn't last anyway. I might just go with tubular uppers if I can't get decent caster with these 73 to 76 arms. I'll let you know what readings I get in a few weeks.

Jim

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I believe you are talking about Moog Part # K7103. If that is correct, there are 4 washers per side. The large washers are to be "pressed" into the large end of the bushing. The small washers "pressed" into the small end. The raised edge of the washer needs to be pressed into the bushing.
 
How about an uneducated guess? If you use a slightly larger bolt and nut you would use those washers on the outer sides of hangers. This would nail down the setting and delete the factory eccentric adjustment.
Sounds good anyway LOL Good luck
 
6pk2goDemon said:
I believe you are talking about Moog Part # K7103. If that is correct, there are 4 washers per side. The large washers are to be "pressed" into the large end of the bushing. The small washers "pressed" into the small end. The raised edge of the washer needs to be pressed into the bushing.
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...but they didn't seem to be the right size to start into the bushings. But it was very close, so I suppose with enough pressure, they'd go in. I wasn't eager to try it without some reassurance that it would work -- it would reek to ruin a new set of bushings out of brute ignorance (not that it would be the first time...).

Thanks!
 
Is there a reason you're wanting the offset bushings instead of the stock ones ?
 
RedFish said:
How about an uneducated guess? If you use a slightly larger bolt and nut you would use those washers on the outer sides of hangers. This would nail down the setting and delete the factory eccentric adjustment.
Sounds good anyway LOL Good luck
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Good thought!

I guess you could also take that larger bolt, modify the eccentrics to fit them, grind the bolt to create a shoulder at the thread end to accept the one eccentric, and weld the other one to the bolt head.

A lot of work...but might be worth it.

Could be something Moog should provide as part of the kit!

Jim
 
Just wanted to follow up on this 'cause I was starting to get confused. :scratch:

Talked to Moog tech line on the K7103 offset UCA bushings. The reason the washers are not pre-installed on these like they are on the stock Moog bushings is because the washers will interfere with pressing the bushings into the control arms. That's why washers need to be pressed in after bushings are installed in the arms.

Once washers are installed into the bushings, there should be no slop. You should be able to use existing cam bolts and make your alignment adjustments.

Moog is typically a well designed front end part and all I'll use if available.

Hope this helps. Good Luck
 
6pk2goDemon said:
Just wanted to follow up on this 'cause I was starting to get confused. :scratch:

Talked to Moog tech line on the K7103 offset UCA bushings. The reason the washers are not pre-installed on these like they are on the stock Moog bushings is because the washers will interfere with pressing the bushings into the control arms. That's why washers need to be pressed in after bushings are installed in the arms.

Once washers are installed into the bushings, there should be no slop. You should be able to use existing cam bolts and make your alignment adjustments.

Moog is typically a well designed front end part and all I'll use if available.

Hope this helps. Good Luck
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This is starting to make sense!

The set that I ordered never had any washers or paper work to describe the above.

Thanks
 
Just squeeze the washers in using your shop vise. I have installed two sets of these.
 
Now that we have the installation sorted out, are these simply nice to have, or an absolute must?
 
lawndart, IMHO I would only use these offset bushings if your vehicle has an issue with negative camber or caster. Could be helpful for a vehicle that has been wrecked or altered (lowered, etc.) and won't come into alignment specs.

In past experience, if installed when not really necessary, specs could be too far positive causing more issues.
 
lawndart360 said:
Now that we have the installation sorted out, are these simply nice to have, or an absolute must?
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That was my next question...

For the street, I think +3* would be max. Don't think it's achievable with stock arms and bushings, but I could live with +2*to +2.5*.

I'll soon find out hopefully next week.

Jim
 
I don't see why Moog doesn't just include info on what to do with the washers in their instructions. With all of the CYA warnings we get these days I think proper instructions would be a given.
 
6pk2goDemon said:
lawndart, IMHO I would only use these offset bushings if your vehicle has an issue with negative camber or caster. Could be helpful for a vehicle that has been wrecked or altered (lowered, etc.) and won't come into alignment specs.

In past experience, if installed when not really necessary, specs could be too far positive causing more issues.
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The deal is, the factory called for negative caster and positive camber. But those specs were for narrow bias-plies on crowned roads. With modern tires you want positive caster and negative camber -- that's the idea behind these bushings. A lot of the "G machine" types will tell you they like 4 to 5 degrees positive caster on the street.

Thanks for clearing up the question of the washers. It seems to have helped a lot of people.
 
'64 Cuda said:
I don't see why Moog doesn't just include info on what to do with the washers in their instructions. With all of the CYA warnings we get these days I think proper instructions would be a given.
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There was a set of directions in my boxes of K7103's indicating the need to press in the washers. I'm guessing the boxes that mvh received had been "looked in" before and returned with something missing when they went back on the shelf................
 
The last thing I want to say is I found a picture of the washers, and it would appear to me that the narrow shoulder on the insides of the washers is all that mates up against the cam bolt, verses the the entire inner sleeve against the cam bolt on the stockers.

Don't know if this is an issue as far as wear is concerned.

Thoughts?
 
NiceFishEh said:
The last thing I want to say is I found a picture of the washers, and it would appear to me that the narrow shoulder on the insides of the washers is all that mates up against the cam bolt, verses the the entire inner sleeve against the cam bolt on the stockers.

Don't know if this is an issue as far as wear is concerned.

Thoughts?
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Atleast we know the bushings inner sleeve wont sieze to the bolt shank. That would possibly damage the bushing when adjusted and / or be impossible to get the bolt back out someday
 
NiceFishEh said:
The last thing I want to say is I found a picture of the washers, and it would appear to me that the narrow shoulder on the insides of the washers is all that mates up against the cam bolt, verses the the entire inner sleeve against the cam bolt on the stockers.

Don't know if this is an issue as far as wear is concerned.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I have lots of experience with wear on these bushings (and others). I ran an a-body in a dirt circle track application 5 years. The front suspension takes a pounding on a dirt car, so I really learned how to make it survive.

As far as the moog offset upper control arm bushings go, they are the weakest of all types. I tried them and they would only last for 1 or 2 racedays. In a street application they will be fine and I have them in my current street driver 74 duster. The stock replacement (non offset bushings) would last a little longer, but by far, without a doubt, the energy suspension bushings were the best. The energy suspension upper control arm bushings lasted a whole season.

To get the caster improvements you need the bushings. Definitely improves the steering. You get more "road feel" and the wheels want to return to center after you are finished turning. If you have the money, the way to go is with the tubular upper a-arms avaiable from a number of sources.
 
Since I'm no alignment expert I sure would like some pictures and more info here. My querry is just how far do the offest bushing throw the upper arm from its original postion and in which direction. Descibed in approx. inches rather than degrees, in or out and forwand or back rather than positive and negative.
 
RedFish said:
Since I'm no alignment expert I sure would like some pictures and more info here. My querry is just how far do the offest bushing throw the upper arm from its original postion and in which direction. Descibed in approx. inches rather than degrees, in or out and forwand or back rather than positive and negative.
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I don't have pictures, but what is happening is you are moving (or attempting to move) the upper balljoint toward the rear of the car. Each degree of caster means moving the upper balljoint rearward 0.180". With the stock bushings, there is only enough adjustment to get the factory recomended caster. If you want more caster you need the bushings or the tubular upper a-arms or you can cut and weld your upper control arms (but I don't recommend cutting and welding them).
The added caster makes steering effort a little more (this is more "road feel") and makes the steering want to return to center after turning.
 
Thanks. My theory was.. If disc brake spindles require a larger ball joint , an offset bushing could be installed in that spindles hole which would not only let everyone use the original upper arms when upgrading but gain caster in a fixed manner at the same time. Your reply suggests this wouldn't be nearly enough change to make a difference.
 
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