No start, bad compression, what now?!

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I'm firmly convinced this is an old wive's tale................

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Airplane engines have much harder valves and seats, and are made of different metals, they need 140 octane fuel, and can be efficient at very high altitudes. if you put pure airplane fuel in a car, see what happens.
 
I'm firmly convinced this is an old wive's tale................

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Beautiful rolls Royce, These engine have harder seats and valves, and were made of different metals. They ran on 140 octane and perform at 20,000 ft plus. Conventional automobile engines weren't designed with that in mind. Many a valve job was done in the 60's from people driving around with blown manifold gaskets. I once had to drive my 318 dart which had a fresh overhaul six hundred miles home with only an exhaust pipe. When I got home I had a burned valve.
 
It sure as hell COULD!!!

If it slipped far enough to bend a valve or two.............
I agree, the sound is a timing chain Issue. I hope the jump didn't damage anything.That pop Is a backfire, no mistake. Anyway, when that engine starts with no manifold? fun!
 
I drove a 69' 318 V8 dart with only an exhaust pipe 600 miles with a new engine. I thought the H pipe would protect me. I was wrong. I needed a valve job when I got home. DUMB.

It wasn't the open exhaust. Otherwise, open headers would be a disaster. Some old farm tractors had VERY short exhaust "back then" and haven't suffered under some very very hard pulling

This is a photo I found on the www of a farmall Regular. Many of these ran for decades this way

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"The wrong side" of ours the day we sold the old girl about 10 years ago. I nearly cried, and we drove it onto the trailer

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With 5 or 6:1 compression, 2200 top end Rpm. 75-80 octane fuel, of course they will., Those tractors ran so rich you could pour gas down the carb and the tractor would speed up.. But 10:0 compression cylinder head temp vs 6:1? Run a modern V8 at high rpm with constant rpm changes,with a leaner mixture what does that do to head temps? any A&P mechanic can tell you the difference between a reciprocating airplane engine and a car or tractor engine.
So yes, cold air on a super hot modern head wil cause big problems.
 
thanks for all the responses, i apprectiate it. im gonna try all the suggestions, you all make some good points. DaveBonds i think may be on it. I willl give the timing chain look, but my buddy and I are kinda betting it is in the valve train.
 
Those engines, the RR Merlin and FarmAll tractor do have a manifold. Without a manifold to 'scavenge' the exhaust, it will burn the valve. Having no manifold will do that.
 
Since you seem to be having so much trouble, I'd do something on these lines.

You already know compression is low. What you don't know is, if you have burnt, stuck valves, or whether it's valve timing, etc.

Take your compression tester or get an air fitting or you can MAKE one out of an old plug, if you can weld. If your compression tester, unscrew the valve, which is just a modified tire valve. Rig this to an air source, even a spare tire!!!

Measure around the front balancer and mark it every 90 degrees. At TDC, you can inject air into no1 and no6

Before you do that, remove the rocker shafts so that the valves will all be closed, unless bent. While they are exposed, you can take something like a hammer and press down hard and work the valves up/ down manually. You can tell if they are bent or stickly

So inject air with each cylinder at it's top dead center. Again, the factory TDC mark will allow no1 and no 6

Just go 'round the firing order at 90 degree points on the crank. The next clockwise 90 mark you made, after the factory TDC, will be cylinders 8 , 5

Next, which is 1/2 turn from the factory mark is 4 , 7

Next 90 is 3 and 2

and back to TDC for 1 or 6 which you already did

(Whatever cylinders are "straight across" from each other on the cap are the pairs)

With air into each cylinder at it's respective TDC, listen for escaping air from exhaust, from intake, from radiator, oil filler, and anyplace else. Intake or exhaust sound is bad valves probably

If the above does not lead to any conclusions, probably time to yank the front timing cover and inspect the chain and cam timing.
 
my story: pulled /6 out of buddies mopar bone yard, been sittin HOWwww many years???? would turn over by hand. oiled the plug holes, wouldn't run, just a small fa_t. got tractor mchanic over, he brings compression testor ( he has all the good tools!>>), says compression is too low for it to start, pours about of pint of 30 wt down throat of carb, fires up and runs, no smoke or knock, vacuum was like 18 or 19. got dark and he went to supper never got thje actually compression tested before it started.
bottom line according to him, ya got to have a certain amount of compression for it to start, it turned over freely but marvel down the plug holes wasn't enough to have rings do their thing. havn't got it on road yet to find out oil consumption. i learned a bunch. he is low $ type and used to making do with junk in form of car and or tracotr parts! LOL. and thats good as i'm always dragging home some unknown motor and old car body.
 
I've used 90 wt., and it smoked like he!!.. lol

There is no reason to believe there's a timing chain issue.. yet
 
if it has been sitting a long time, I"d suspect rings stuck in the grooves and not doing their job. some lightweight oil in the cylinders may do the trick or they may stay sticky till it is pulled apart.
You said you checked the bearings and whole shortblock, did you have the heads off and not take the pistons out? OR did you just take the pan and valve covers off?
 
yea i just took off the intake, valve covers, oil pan, looked inside the cylinder bores, looked good, checked all the bearings, looked great, looked at the chain. the only thing I didnt do was pull the heads.

so you can pour oil down the carb? how does that help? thanks

I did get some info from another member, I think I might check the timing chain, to see if that is an issue or if i can rule it out.
 
If this were me, I would NOT pour oil down the carb. This creates a lot of oil "glued" to the insides of the ports, and takes a long time to burn off

Instead, pull all 8 plugs. For one thing, this gives you a chance to inspect them for fouling........whether gas or oil fouled, and clean or replace if necessary

Then squirt about 1/2 to one teaspoon of engine oil in each cylinder. Crank on the starter a few turns before you put the plugs back in. This will make a mess, so lay some rags around the plug holes.

This helps seal up bad ring IF that is the problem.
 
I did pour some oil down the plug holes but I put them back in before I tried to crank it. Im going to check the chain tonight an see how it goes
 
If this were me, I would NOT pour oil down the carb. This creates a lot of oil "glued" to the insides of the ports, and takes a long time to burn off..

Yeah,, that's certainly not recommended service procedure,,

My son had dragged home an S10, V-6, and had been trying to get it started, I could tell it had no compression.. Next to him, his buddy was installing Toyota fr/rear ends into a Samari,, and had bottles of gear oil near-by,, so as I was walking by, I poured a 1/4 cupish of gear oil down the throttle body,, he got compression almost right away... it started, smoked like crazy, cleared, and ran fine... he drove it for 3 mos,, no smoke, and sold it....lol
 
It sure as hell COULD!!!

If it slipped far enough to bend a valve or two.............

The reason why I don't believe it has anything to do with a timing chain jumping is because of the first post:

I went through the motor and checked all the bearings, torqued everything down, checked the the whole short block, and it all looked great, i posted photos on the forum. I sealed it all up, new freeze pugs, rebuilt carb, i got it all hooked up to the engine bay and A833.

What's missing from that post is a cylinder head inspection. Add this to the mix;

the engine was not running before... I bought the dart from a guy that let it sit in his yard for 13+ years.

...and you've got sticking valves.

Don't bother dumping oil down it. Put some air pressure in it with a leakdown and smack each valve with a mallot, rocker shafts on or off, doesn't matter. Do it until you stop hearing air coming through the intake and exhaust ports.

If the short block looks fine, I highly doubt that the timing chain was stretched far enough to bend any valves.

Also, food for thought/ a bit of technical;

In order for an engine to bend a few valves, the hydraulic lifters would have to prime with full oil pressure and most likely all of the intake valves would have been damaged.

When a timing chain jumps, it's because of a loose chain, allowing enough slack for the crank sprocket to jump a tooth, because it's the smaller one and also the source of power on the timing set. This usually happens when it is running and usually causes one or two bent exhaust valves, due to closer tolerances, on a warm engine, upon the initial event of the timing chain slipping one or two teeth.


If the timing set was installed improperly and valves are close enough to contact the pistons when the hydraulic lifters don't have full pressure, most of the time, all of the intake valves are damaged.

There are cases where compression variances can be caused by a timing chain jumping, but I don't think that this is one of them, because of the prior inspection. If the chain was overlooked or a slacked chain was left in place, that could be the case, but because nothing was mentioned about the cylinder heads, other than they have been sitting for 13 years, probably under cam tension, that's the most likely cause, IMO.

The leakdown test will eliminate all guess work and the mallot use on each valve pair at that cylinder's TDC will tell if it's a sticking/ hanging or even a bent valve or burned seat. If it doesn't clean up on true TDC, or better yet, with no rocker shafts in place, the valve is not sealing and the head has to come off.

Another quick way to check valve hang is to use a straight edge with the rocker shafts off, across the lash tips on the stems. Any gaps indicate low/ hanging valves.
 
I did pour some oil down the plug holes but I put them back in before I tried to crank it. Im going to check the chain tonight an see how it goes

are you sure the plugs are not oil fouled
 
So I took the timing cover off, and I got it to TDC and I dont belive the timing marks are lining up. The top one im certain is the timing mark but im not sure if the bottom one is. It seems to be the only mark/dot on it though.
 

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If im not mistaken, and i may be, but isnt the bottom timing mark on the teeth part?
 

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That is not #1 top dead center. Both dots need to be @ 12:00 for # 1 to be tdc on compression stroke. Id invest in a new chain. looks pretty stretched. Once you get # 1 tdc then drop distributor in w rotor facing # 1. As I suspected I think your distributor was 180* off. Someone just had a thread on this. Can't seem to put my hands on it.
 
Well I don't see any markings on the teeth part. And like I said I got the 1 cylinder to top dead center, rotor is pointing there and the marks don't line up on the timing gears, So I take it that means it jumped?

That little dot on the lower crank gear was the only one I found. Unless that's not it? But I'm guessing since the top one is not exactly dead set in the middle and that there is no mark on the lower crank that ultimately it all leads too new chain?

What do I need to buy? Just a chain? Oreillys has one for $11.99 - sounds a little to easy- hahah


I would like to know if that is the mark on the crank shaft gear, so someone correct me if I'm wrong?
 
Well I don't see any markings on the teeth part. And like I said I got the 1 cylinder to top dead center, rotor is pointing there and the marks don't line up on the timing gears, So I take it that means it jumped?

That little dot on the lower crank gear was the only one I found. Unless that's not it? But I'm guessing since the top one is not exactly dead set in the middle and that there is no mark on the lower crank that ultimately it all leads too new chain?

What do I need to buy? Just a chain? Oreillys has one for $11.99 - sounds a little to easy- hahah


I would like to know if that is the mark on the crank shaft gear, so someone correct me if I'm wrong?
chain don't look jumped to me. turn that thing clockwise till the dots line up. regardless bottom dot needs to be straight up. and it is not. Once the dots are lined up see where your rotor is pointing. Towards # 1 = 180* out dot to dot rotor should be pointing towards #6 on your cap. That is best I can describe it. Read thread link below until you understand it.
 
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