NOT the usual cam advice...

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. Professor Fate

    Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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    I'm interested in people's thoughts on this one:
    The build so far:
    360 roller motor, freshened up but basically stock. No head work other than cleaning up the ports and port matching. TBI, currently factory issue (yeah, I know all the gripes; but it serves me well and has been trouble-free. Someday it may get changed out, but not right now. And yes, I know the factory electronics aren't very forgiving and limit my options. That's why I'm posting). 2:76 rear, but with a low 1st 32RH, stock lockup convertor; manifolds and dual exhaust. Daily driver/road tripper early A wagon.
    What I'm looking for:
    I don't give two hoots about a lumpy idle or how it sounds. I need something that idles well, has good bottom end, smooth power band and plays nice with the F.I., a little better performance across the board would always be nice but not looking for a tire fryer. It's the family cruiser...
    My current thoughts:
    1.) Just stay with the factory 360 cam, and call it good.
    2.)Throw in a factory 318 roller cam (has marginally improved timing events).
    3.)One of the above 2, and bump up the rocker ratio.
    4.)One of the RV type grinds that everyone offers for these, being basically a truck motor...
    5.)And of course, I know: call and talk to any of the various cam grinders and get their input on a custom grind...
    Any feedback on what you may have done, what kind of results you may have had with similar setups, or recommendations on what has worked well for you is more than welcome; just remember, I'm not trying to set the world on fire with this one.
     
  2. 318willrun

    318willrun have a great day

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    From what you posted, I wouldn't bother changing it... leave it stock
     
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    • toolmanmike

      toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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      360 roller motor will have the biggest stock roller cam already. Oh ya, you can spend a thousand and screw with a aftermarket cam and accessories to change to something else but for the "gain per dollar invested" I would do as 318willrun suggested and stick with the stock cam.
       
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      • Professor Fate

        Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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        Thanks guys- you were reading between the lines on that one! I'm not unhappy with it as it sits, but since its coming out for some other work, now would be the time to bump it up a notch if possible, or worth it. Now I can invest (waste) that money on something else...
         
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        • AJ/FormS

          AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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          I have heard but not verified that the stock 5.9 cam was 250/264/110+19/37* overlap( 12* effective)/182/194@.050/.411-.430 lift.
          But take note of the +19 advance. this makes the compression to be 116* with ab Ica of 64* and the power extraction to be 127*. Read it again; 64* . the intake valve is closing ridiculously late, killing cylinder pressure, and bottom end torque with it. Remember, I have not verified this. I got it off some other Mopar forums.
          I can't say why the factory would do this but I can guess.
          Firstly the 5.9 is advertised at 9.4 Scr, and perhaps they needed to give up some pressure.
          Secondly the extraordinarily long extraction cycle may be their way of increasing the fuel mileage to some target they may have had in mind.
          Thirdly they killed the overlap from a maximum possible of 37* to to just 12* Effective.
          Why is this important?
          because in the stock engine this marriage of 64*Ica and 9.4Scr predicts a cylinder pressure of just ;
          Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
          Ica of 64* @800ft elevation
          Effective stroke is 2.79 inches.
          Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.55:1 .
          Your dynamic cranking pressure is 147.37
          PSI. ............................. 147
          V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 124 ....................................... 124VP

          and a mediocre VP of just 124
          now lets advance that cam to split overlap; and I get;
          Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
          Ica of 51*,still 800ft
          Effective stroke is 3.08 inches.
          Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.23:1 .
          Your dynamic cranking pressure is 165.42
          PSI. ............................. 165
          V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 154 ..................................... 154VP

          Check it out! To read about VP click on the blue V/P in my sig.
          This is an increase in cylinder pressure of 12.2% and more importantly, an increase in VP of 24.2%.
          The compression duration is now 129* and extraction is more than adequate at 114*, and the overlap has grown to an Effective of 36*......... which means headers are now optional, and will make a power difference.

          The downside to this is that the stock engine ran on 87 gas, but the new cylinder pressure may require 91 at WOT.

          But make particular note of the over 24% increase in VP. This is like increasing your engine torque by a like amount, or could also be likened to adding a similar amount of rear gear. And..1.24x2.76=3.43s

          You don't have to retard the cam timing to split overlap. Say you want to top out at 160psi pressure to run 89 gas ( I can't imagine why, but lets just say)
          Here it is at
          Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
          Ica of 55*,still 800ft
          Effective stroke is 2.99 inches.
          Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.02:1 .
          Your dynamic cranking pressure is 159.81
          PSI. ........................ 160
          V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 144 .................................... 144

          Notice the VP fell from 154 to 144. which is still waaaay better than 124. I like to say that 140 is where the fun starts.
          This will liven up your bottom end like 3.17 rear gears would. So still winning!

          Ok now, I hate to try and make you be the GuineaPig, but no one has yet spoken against this overly advanced factory install, soooooooo you might want to check it out. You know you need a chain-kit anyway right........ If this info I'm presenting is correct, and you end up correcting it, it will certainly plump up your torque throughout the rpm range, and especially at zero mph to ~3500rpm.......... which with 2.76s is about 35mph;BadaBoom: just try not to spin the tires ALL the time (154VP is incredibly potent off the line). It will not, however, make much significant power over the top. I mean it's still just a250* cam /182*@.050. But retiming the cam usually costs no more than a gasket and a couple of hours......... if you have or can borrow the tools.But in your case,an install change from 119* to 106* is 13* and you won't find an offset cam key for that...... So you are gonna need the cam/crank gears with pre-machined timing grooves, in addition to the offset keys... And not sure if that combo will even go 13*.

          And most importantly; I don't know what this will do to your piston to valve clearance. I can say this; retarding a cam usually increases the valve to piston clearance, but you need to verify this; I will not buy you a new set of valves if they crash.

          Is it worth it? On a budget,IMHO, absolutely yes. No contest, and I would go all the way to split overlap with the cam centerline in at 106*.
          But if you can afford a new cam, then no; forget it. Just buy a cam with the same Ica and more duration in both intake and exhaust and then you get more power over the top, in addition to the stronger bottom end. This is kindof a unique situation. In the lightweight A, with a 360, you don't ,for street, actually need VP into the 150s ; on account of it will just end up in tiresmoke. 140VP would be lots. And that gets you an Ica of about 56*. So Any cam you might chose that can be installed at that 56* Ica will already have a strong bottom-end. So then you can concentrate on putting the power at whatever rpm that works out to. Just remember, with 2.76s It's kindof dumb to have a power peak at 75 mph in first gear, if the speed limit is 65.
          Also with that overdrive trans, it's also kindof dumb to marry it to 2.76s with a hi-rpm cam. You are in a unique position with that .69 overdrive and loc-up TC, to do some pretty unusual things.

          I would not bother with increasing the rocker-arm ratios.

          Ok you said not the usual advice wanted so lets work this backwards From a few posts down, we discovered that the factory cam is in straight up, and I'll go out on a limb and say the cylinder pressure has come in at 155psi, Just a guess, based on this
          Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
          Ica of 55*, still 800ft
          Effective stroke is 2.99 inches.
          Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.02:1 .
          Your dynamic cranking pressure is 159.81
          PSI.............. 160
          V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 144

          And I will arbitrarily deduct 5psi for worn rings; so that makes 155psi.
          This is just a baseline.It doesn't need to be accurate at this point.
          So two things we know; the engine should be at 160psi, and the LSA is 110*. We also know ;
          250/264/110+0, so that spits out the Ica of 55, and yur not happy with the launch from zero mph,right? So we need to either raise the compression ratio,to get more pressure; or increase the stall to where the engine has more power; or increase the cylinder pressure with an earlier closing intake valve. Earlier closing intake usually means smaller cam so less power over the top.
          Of these three the compression ratio is the most effective.... but I theorized that you already had 155 psi. A re-ring alone might get you 160 psi...... But I arbitrarily chose 800 ft as your elevation....so if you are not at 800ft, then the pressure could be a wee bit higher or a lot lower. But since this is just an exercise, lets say I guessed right on the money. Ok so I see you have already freshened the engine, so now you are up to 160 and are using 89 gas, and lets say you want to stay there.
          So now we have a written-in-stone Ica of 55*, see how easy that was?
          Next, since I'm on the unusual road, lets look at fuel economy. To get good fuel economy we need to stretch out the power extraction cycle, as far as we can. Numbers less than 100 are pigs on gas. Numbers over 130 are silly targets, they never get the mileage you think they will. So half way in-between is a good target, and I get 115*
          See; we are building a cam and now we have the compression duration set at 180less 55=125*, and the extraction is 115* .
          Next, lets talk about overlap, cuz this cycle can make lots of power or none at all, in addition to what the intake duration is gonna do. Ok, so lets say you are running log manifolds, and not looking to set the world on fire, so how about we just say; don't care about overlap. Great that opens up a whole big world to intake and exhaust, the two remaining durations to hammer out.

          This is getting easier all the time. Ok, so to complete all 4 cycles we have exactly two crank revolutions, plus whatever overlap we are gonna run. Since the Ica of 55* is written in stone, we are gonna have to install this theoretical cam at split overlap. Fine. So we start with Two revolutions which is 720degrees and lets throw in lots of overlap cuz the logs are gonna kill it anyway. I chose ummmmmmmmmmmm 50*, that totals 770 available degrees, from which we subtract the already knowns of 125and 115 so that leaves 530.
          Next, because you have logs we're gonna give the exhaust 10 extra to get outta there, leaving 520 to be divided equally between intake and exhaust, so 260 each. But we gotta add back the 10 to the exhaust, so it will be 270. Lets write it out;
          260/270/xxx/50 overlap( /xxx/125 compression/115 power, Ica of xxx, hyup that looks pretty good. Lets fill in the blanks.
          First we'll find the intake opening point which is 360 less the compression and intake degrees, so;
          360-(125+260) = minus 25 so that is exactly half the 50 I allocated to it, so that is 25* to each ; intake and exhaust so the cam is in straight up with an effective overlap equal to its maximum potential , so still 50*, Ok pencil that in, and I get
          260/270/xxx/50 overlap (50effective)/125/115
          ok that just leaves the LSA, which is the average of intake plus exhaust duration less Twice the LSA= overlap so I get
          {(260+270)/2 less 50 }2= LSA; or 107.5, pencil that in
          260/270/107.5/50(50*Effective)/125/115
          and finally the required install to make it all happen,which is half the intake duration(260) less the number of overlap degrees (25) previously allocated to intake; =105; which is 2.5* from 107.5 so the cam goes in 2.5 degrees advanced, so pencil that in and I get;
          260/270/107.5+2.5/50 overlap(50Effective)/125 compression/115 exhaust/ Ica of 55* badaboom we're done

          Now let's analyze this;
          first the factory cam, then the theoretical cam
          250/264/110.0+0.0/37 overlap(30effective)/125 comp/118 exhaust, Ica of 55*
          260/270/107.5+2.5/50 overlap(50 effective)/125 comp/115exhaust, Ica of 55*
          So first things first, we have to assume both cams are being measured at the same tappet lift spec, whatever it is.
          Then since the new cam is 10* larger on the intake duration we can assume this is 10/7=1.4 cam sizes bigger, and so the power has moved up about 1.4x200=286 rpm higher.Maybe. Lets suppose. And that might be, if the rest of the combo supports it, plus 15hp.
          But from idle to 3000/3500 there may be no power difference at all,.... because the ICa, and therefore the cylinder pressure, remain exactly the same. Ohhhh that's gotta hurt,lol.
          That's why this is just an exercise.
          See,at your compression which I assumed to be 160psi,you are about maxed out on cylinder pressure for 89 gas and iron heads, so there is no place to go. And that is why the theoretical cam had to have the same Ica as the current cam.. the exercise is not valid if your real world pressure is not the same 160 psi, or if your real-world Ica is not 55*.
          But now you know why things are the way they are.

          But be of good cheer this 260 cam, will make more absolute power for starters. And there are two more things to consider. The 107.5 LSA and the 50* overlap.
          These two together with long-tube headers are gonna make a nice lil power bulge over the top , in addition to the possible 15hp already mentioned, and the tighter LSA will also increase the midrange from around peak torque and beyond. How much? IDK, cuz it's gonna be lost in whatever the headers bring to the table. But I could guess; New cam plus headers, if the rest of the combo supports it, say maybe 30hp total, at around 4700 rpm. Perhaps a tad more.
          The headers, now, should also fatten up the bottom end just a lil bit.

          So what's wrong with this picture?
          Two things;
          First is the factory stall TC, which forces the engine to work at a very low, terrible for performance, rpm.
          And second is the 2.76s which keep the engine at a very low power level forever and a day. I mean 39 to 42 mph is a long wait. To be fair the torque is already working in the mid to hi 3000s so make it 32 and 35 mph when the power begins to be felt; still a forever wait.
          With the current power peak of perhaps 4000, and with 26" tires, means 4000~39mph.... so that is a long wait to find the power. And the theoretical replacement cam is nearly 300 higher so now the peak is hitting at 4300 or 42mph, 3 more mph to wait! sux to be the guy with his foot in the throttle-body,lol.
          So what's it all mean?
          My answer is;
          The first go-to with the 2.76s is about a 3500 stall TC, minimum.

          OOPs I missed that this is not an overdrive combo, so ignore the following, perhaps just put it on the back-burner.
          But why in the world are you keeping the 2.76s with that overdrive?
          Lets say you retimed that factory cam to split overlap. At 36*Effective overlap, it will make a few more horsepower.... and a bit of torque, with headers and dual exhaust. Leaving that cam in, just retimed means about 115* of extraction, and so a target cruise rpm of 1800 to 2000. With a .69 overdrive, this means 3.55s and 26s will get you a cruise rpm of 2035 in loc-up @65mph. or 2350@75mph
          Now 3.55s are still not great but they are 28.6% better than the 2.76s, allowing your engine to spool up much faster, cuz it thinks it is now 28.6% more powerful. And that means you no longer need the 3500 TC. I would try a 2800, but if the one you already have is 2500 or more then just start with that. It might satisfy you.
          end of od discussion.

          So what you see here is juggling the starter gear with the Stall-speed. Usually you would juggle this with cylinder pressure as well, but in your case, you may be maxed out, or close to it, on pressure, as is.
          Logically then, it follows that if the combo needs a TC and gears already, before any engine changes, then you might as well get that over with and out of the way.................... First.
          As always
          Happy HotRodding.
           
          Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 8:23 PM
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          • tonysrt

            tonysrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Aren't you sorry you asked?
             
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            • Professor Fate

              Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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              Thanks! A lot of interesting thoughts there- this will take a while to digest and research... as you said, reliable information on these motors in stock form is hard to come by and sometimes next to impossible to verify. But I've got time; it's January and the babies have been put to bed for a long winter's nap...
              It's got a new timing set in it already from the freshen-up, when I re-open it (need to replace a head, so it won't be a problem to check any changes in valve/piston clearances at the same time) I can double check the advance keyways and see how far I can get with that and some offset keys. I just wonder how the factory programming will react to a 13* cam change. Lotsa food for thought there. Won't be the first time I've been a guinea pig.
              Oh, by the way, the trans is just low 1st and lockup, no overdrive... OD would have been too much surgery for this project.
               
              Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 4:52 PM
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              • Professor Fate

                Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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                I'd be disappointed with anything less from AJ!
                 
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                • dibbons

                  dibbons FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Maybe dial in the stock cam first (installed) and verify the lift and duration for yourself. From what you stated in post #1, looks like the stock cam is the ticket.
                   
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                  • Professor Fate

                    Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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                    Yup. Degreed it in just for giggles and to stay in practice. It was right there and went in straight up. I wasn't too concerned about it. Will verify before I start playing around with the advance, though.
                     
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                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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                      Well if it went in straight up, then it's in at 110.... cuz it's a 110 cam, and that blows the forum info out of the water as it pertains to your engine. In your case tho, straight up is not at split-overlap, which, according to the spec I have, would be 106. How do I get that? Easy, start with finding the overlap; you add the durations together, then divide by two; then subtract twice the LSA. So;
                      (250+264)/2 less (110x2)=37* overlap.
                      Next take half the overlap from half the intake duration and that spits out your install for split-overlap. So;
                      (250/2) less (37/2) =106.5, and I always give the half degree back to the exhaust, so 106 it is. This is as close to split overlap as you are likely to get.
                      These formulas are common to all camworks.
                      Straight up makes the ICL(Intake CenterLine)= LSA(Lobe Center Angle, don't ask me why it's not Senter,IDK. Up here we call it LDA(Lobe Displacement Angle), so 110=110, which is zero advance/zero retard. . Straight up like this will give you a good compromise for pumpgas and cylinder pressure, so If it was mine, I would just do a compression test and if that turns out good, and even then I would leave that alone. With 2.76s those 4 degrees to get to 106 are not worth chasing.At least not to me....... unless the front of the engine was coming off anyway, and I had room for the additional 5psi cylinder pressure. Well, then, it's free for the taking.....
                      OK back to the previous post.
                       
                      Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 8:01 PM
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                      • tonysrt

                        tonysrt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        I'm so glad that there is guys like AJ that understand all those numbers. To me its greek until I'm installing the cam. I will be doing a 360 roller this spring, so info is good for me to try and digest.
                         
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                        • Professor Fate

                          Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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                          Yeah, that's what makes our hobby in general, and this site in particular; so great...!
                           
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                          • Wyrmrider

                            Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                            stick with it tony

                            proff
                            bvvc with that tbi
                            do you have to pass smog?
                            either way you can.t squeeze the lca much
                            the popular "sausage" and rt grinds may even be too big for your combo they like 3.55s or 3.91
                            google them and make notes
                            same duration more area under the curve
                            1.5 shaft rockers
                            can you post your head number
                            see post 3
                            high ratio rockers not a value
                            that said
                            bullet has a large portfolio of short cams
                            Bullet Cams Master List
                            looks like you could get 450 lift without going big and some of the .200 numbers look good
                            howard scroll down to bhr series standard ramp hyd rollers
                            https://www.howardscams.com/sites/default/files/lobe list email 1-20-2014.pdf
                            bhr201300 254 @.006 201@.050 119 @200 0.300 lobe .4500 w/1.5 rocker
                            or shorter
                            example only
                            maybe score a 5.2 core takeout would be the first thing
                             
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                            • MOPAROFFICIAL

                              MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                              Lmao
                              I kept scrolling and scrolling and it was still aj's reply endlessly line after line.


                              Stock cam.Advance it hair and or get some true 1.6/1.7 rockers and headers, work the exhaust ports a little bit.
                               
                              Last edited: Jan 17, 2020 at 9:42 AM
                            • yellow rose

                              yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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                              So you are saying that the cam was ground 4 degrees ahead? That's the only way I see you can get split overlap at 106.

                              Otherwise, the intake rocker would be leading the exhaust rocker on the 106 (advanced) and the exhaust would be leading the intake on a 112 (retarded).
                               
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                              • enigma57

                                enigma57 Well-Known Member

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                                Well, you said 'Not The Usual Cam Advice', so here goes......

                                If you don't have to pass emissions test but want to increase low end power, a fairly mild cam with the LSA tightened up will get you there.

                                This is Hughes' mildest factory roller cam for the 5.9 litre (360) Magnum truck engine (208 / 214 deg, duration @ 0.050" lift, 0.523" / 0.533" valve lift with 1.6 Magnum rockers)......

                                Hughes Engines

                                Standard grind has 110 deg. LSA and 106 deg. installed centerline. Ask Hughes if they will grind it with tighter LSA and ICL similarly to their 'Whiplash' series flat tappet design for 340 / 360......

                                107 deg. LSA and 102 deg. installed centerline.

                                You should notice a marked improvement in off idle and low end throttle response. You will need to install with valve springs matched to cam and if you retain the OEM EFI unit, will probably need engine management computer mods to match recommended ignition curve for the 'Whiplash' spec cams. Hughes has recurved Pertronics distributors for their Whiplash cam grinds...... Ask them for the specs and have your engine management computer reprogrammed to provide same advance curve.

                                There used to be reworked 2bbl throttle bodies fitted with larger throttle blades for the Magnum engines. That would help. Also, around 1993 - 1994, the Dodge truck engines had larger 2-1/4" exhaust outlets and head pipes. Later year Magnum engines are identical except they have smaller 2" exhaust outlets. If you don't have the larger outlet exhaust manifolds, find some and a couple inches downstream from exhaust connection, slip 2-1/2" tubing over the 2-1/4" and weld it up. Then run 2-1/2" duals with an H-type crossover (balance) tube and you should see a noticeable improvement in performance. And again...... If you don't have to do emission testing where you are...... Can the cat and when reprogramming engine management computer, set it up to run without the cat.

                                5.9L V8 specs

                                Good luck with your build,

                                Harry
                                 
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                                • Wyrmrider

                                  Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                                  file:///home/chronos/u-928d7c365c3243b343d3c8fe58ad2c44a7a9108d/MyFiles/Downloads/Crane_Master%20Catalog_2019_Low.pdf

                                  page 92 has 3 cams for tbi interesting

                                  he does not have the compression a magnum has i he does not want a cam for a magnum if he has tbi
                                  and that hughes in a wagon with tall gears and stock everything????
                                  and
                                  is the cam core different
                                  great tips on the ex manifolds
                                  check the hughes against the howards lone list
                                  for the price of a hughes he n get a custom
                                  or save lots with a regrind
                                  get a core
                                   
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                                  • dartfever

                                    dartfever Well-Known Member

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                                    The original R/T cam would be a good choice. Has a 114 LSA which should keep the TBI happy and gives you a bump at .050" at 204/208.
                                     
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                                    • Professor Fate

                                      Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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                                      • 318willrun

                                        318willrun have a great day

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                                        HOLY COW!!! Post 5 a new FABO record ??? LOL :poke::poke:
                                         
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                                        • j par

                                          j par Well-hung Member

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                                          You read all that!? I thought I spent too much time just trying to scroll past it! LOL good Lord...
                                           
                                        • Professor Fate

                                          Professor Fate Push the button, Max...

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                                          Okay, I got up this morning, put on my bathrobe and fuzzy bunny slippers, and go to the computer to check the weather forecast and log into FABO to check some threads...
                                          I blew coffee out my nose and almost pooped my shorts when I saw how AJ's reply had bloomed into a mini-novel! Be careful what you wish for, I guess!
                                          You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman to put that much time and thought into a reply to a new member who you don't even know! Your enthusiasm and love of the subject shows. I get the gist of what you're saying, but it's been a long time since my slide-rule days. I've got to re-read the links you gave and the recommendations you made a few more times to let it sink in, but I'll get there (or maybe my grandkids will :) ).
                                          Thanks to all who replied, lots to consider here...
                                           
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                                          • j par

                                            j par Well-hung Member

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                                            You could make a career out of reading his post, just put the stock cam in there and move forward...
                                             
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                                            • 318willrun

                                              318willrun have a great day

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                                              we love our very own :) We have fun with our very own as well :D
                                               
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