And that stuff back in the day had actual good additive packages that the EPA had yet to deball.
Oil recommendations for a 340 Duster?
- Thread starter John K
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I bet Diddy could help you out.
Diddy go to jail or not?
He got slapped on the wrist.
mopar head
DoD nuisance Alien/Squatch extermination team
Frank Mopar
Well-Known Member
How about a sticky with the same 800 opinions you get on every “what oil should I use” thread
Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
For sure I'm not sure id run 30 weight in a non roller cam motor. Just seems to light.
Your opinion. My 2500cc Ford ministock turns 7800 RPM all season with the inherent balance issues of the 4 cylinders, even with the ATI damper. Never had an engine failure or any oil issues in all my years of racing. I trust Amsoil. But everyone seems to have their own preferences. And since a local distributor is one of my sponsors, I get it for less than you pay for Gibbs' stuff.
on a older engine pre 1975 i use a mineral 20W50, on my rebuild mopar engines 340 and 440/493 i use Mobil1 or Castrol 5W50 or 10W60. Never had any lifter failure or engine damage in 30 years. Oil change every 3000 mls or sooner.
Oil Quality issues come up frequently. As an oil formulator, I found that it is far better to change your oil regularly (3000K) than to worry about the "quality" of the oil. Yes, you need ZDDP in the oil. They all have it, but at different levels. About 800 ppm in modern passenger car oils and 1200 ppm in modern diesel engine oils. More than 1200 ppm ZDDP is not needed and may even harm the cam and lifters.
This is why I question using top treatments added to an oil with unknown levels of ZDDP. I have used Delo 400 15W-40 in my 340's for almost 50 years. In a '98 318 Jeep, I put 225,000 miles on it and it only used 1/2 quart of oil between changes even with that many miles on it, and no leaks. My '66 426 Hemi loved Delo. So did my '67 383 Formula S. And I still run Delo 400 in my restored '68 340 FB FS.
But any HDDEO (HD Diesel Engine Oil) should work fine. These oils have to pass different wear tests than PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oils) and require more ZDDP. API (American Petroleum Institute) that licenses are current engine oils (see API Starburst for oil grade) limits ZDDP in PCMO's due to detonation issues in Direct Injection gasoline engines but does not limit ZDDP in HDDEO's.
Most of the claims made by oil marketers are just that claims. Few facts to back up the claims other than irrelevant bench tests. All API licensed oils meet the same engine test requirements which are incredibly severe as the OEM's use API certification to ensure that the oil sill not lead to oil related engine warranty problems. There are really only 5 sources of additives for formulating engine oils in the world. Lubrizol, Infinium (a Shell-Exxon JV), Oronite (a division of Chevron Chemical), Afton (the successor to Ethyl Petroleum, Ethyl is known for Tetra Ethyl Lead additive for fuel), and a few other minor ones. These companies make probably 80% or more of the additive packages used by blenders to produce finished engine oils.
So, oil blenders, especially national brand blenders (PZ, QS, Valvoline, etc.) blend oils around the country using regionally produced base oils and approved additive systems in the finished oil formulation. All use a competitive bid process for additives and base oils. But all finished oils with the API label meet stringent QA/QC requirements as no one wants to pay for oil-related failures of engines.
Independent oil producers may produce API certified oils, but if there is no API label, the oil doesn't meet current specifications. But it may still be good for older engines.
In my original '68 340 Barracuda, I ran current SE and SF oils with 3000 mile or less oil changes as I raced the 340 a lot (350 runs in first 40,000 miles). At 68K, I rebuilt the engine (stupidest thing I ever did) for more power and found about 95% original crosshatching in the cylinders. I should have left it alone! Bearings were perfect, and the only deposits were from lead in the gasoline (white pasty sludge in the valley notches).
Sorry for the long discussion, but having formulated oils for so many years, I want people to know more about them as there is a lot of pseudo-science about oils out there.
This is why I question using top treatments added to an oil with unknown levels of ZDDP. I have used Delo 400 15W-40 in my 340's for almost 50 years. In a '98 318 Jeep, I put 225,000 miles on it and it only used 1/2 quart of oil between changes even with that many miles on it, and no leaks. My '66 426 Hemi loved Delo. So did my '67 383 Formula S. And I still run Delo 400 in my restored '68 340 FB FS.
But any HDDEO (HD Diesel Engine Oil) should work fine. These oils have to pass different wear tests than PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oils) and require more ZDDP. API (American Petroleum Institute) that licenses are current engine oils (see API Starburst for oil grade) limits ZDDP in PCMO's due to detonation issues in Direct Injection gasoline engines but does not limit ZDDP in HDDEO's.
Most of the claims made by oil marketers are just that claims. Few facts to back up the claims other than irrelevant bench tests. All API licensed oils meet the same engine test requirements which are incredibly severe as the OEM's use API certification to ensure that the oil sill not lead to oil related engine warranty problems. There are really only 5 sources of additives for formulating engine oils in the world. Lubrizol, Infinium (a Shell-Exxon JV), Oronite (a division of Chevron Chemical), Afton (the successor to Ethyl Petroleum, Ethyl is known for Tetra Ethyl Lead additive for fuel), and a few other minor ones. These companies make probably 80% or more of the additive packages used by blenders to produce finished engine oils.
So, oil blenders, especially national brand blenders (PZ, QS, Valvoline, etc.) blend oils around the country using regionally produced base oils and approved additive systems in the finished oil formulation. All use a competitive bid process for additives and base oils. But all finished oils with the API label meet stringent QA/QC requirements as no one wants to pay for oil-related failures of engines.
Independent oil producers may produce API certified oils, but if there is no API label, the oil doesn't meet current specifications. But it may still be good for older engines.
In my original '68 340 Barracuda, I ran current SE and SF oils with 3000 mile or less oil changes as I raced the 340 a lot (350 runs in first 40,000 miles). At 68K, I rebuilt the engine (stupidest thing I ever did) for more power and found about 95% original crosshatching in the cylinders. I should have left it alone! Bearings were perfect, and the only deposits were from lead in the gasoline (white pasty sludge in the valley notches).
Sorry for the long discussion, but having formulated oils for so many years, I want people to know more about them as there is a lot of pseudo-science about oils out there.
H Monster is right about HDDEO's. Look for the API Service circle and make sure you use CK-4 or better (CM, CN)/ SM or better. "C" is for Commercial engines (aka diesels) and S is for Standard engines (aka gasoline). The SAE viscosity grade (Society of Automotive Engineers) is in the center of the circle.
I wish it was easier to find reasonably priced 10W30 and 15W40 oils with 1000 ppm zddp or more. Shell's tech sheet doesn't show it for their T4 oil. You will have better luck with 20W50 but that is too heavy IMHO.
Sounds like Valvoline VR1 10W-30 Racing is what you're looking for.
Perhaps related is preferred viscosity......and that may vary by use. I note when my 318 engine first starts, oil pressure comes right up and pegs out pretty high. Later on, when fully warmed up, drops way down. Running 10W-30, which is supposed to be thin and flow better when cold, then thickens up to become more viscous as it warms up. So response at the gauge opposite what theory ought to suggest. Concern is has oil pressure dropped enough to be a concern, or is it pumping as much or more than when cold, but is flowing so much better as there is little resistance to flow?
What is the balance? Is a 15W-40 oil the best all around? Guys running 20w-50........why?
Not the 318, but on a different engine, at startup you can really hear the rocker arms working.......then a moment later when oil pressure starts coming up, engine noise goes all quiet. That may do more damage at each start than whatever flow problems create once warmed up (that engine maintains constant oil pressure even after warmed up).
Is that the ultimate goal?
My Tundra pickup does same as 318. Oil pressure high at cold startup, then falls to low as engine warms up. And stays there no matter what.
What is the balance? Is a 15W-40 oil the best all around? Guys running 20w-50........why?
Not the 318, but on a different engine, at startup you can really hear the rocker arms working.......then a moment later when oil pressure starts coming up, engine noise goes all quiet. That may do more damage at each start than whatever flow problems create once warmed up (that engine maintains constant oil pressure even after warmed up).
Is that the ultimate goal?
My Tundra pickup does same as 318. Oil pressure high at cold startup, then falls to low as engine warms up. And stays there no matter what.
Frank Mopar
Well-Known Member
Oil does not get thicker as it heats up. Google that.
"Oil does not get thicker as it heats up. Google that." Exactly Right.
Oil drastically changes viscosity with temperature.
This plot shows the change in Kinematic Viscosity, the normal flow of an oil, with temperature in Centigrade (°C). 100°C = 212°F.
I chose 15W-40, 10W-40 and SAE 30 as examples. The low temperature (0°C, 32°F) viscosity is very high for 15W-40 but drops drastically for the 10W-40. This allows easier starting and quicker oil pressure buildup. The scale of this chart is too large to show the viscosity near 100°C, so expand the scale.
Here you can see that the 15W-40 and 10W-40 are about the same as the SAE 40 grade represents KV @ 100°C. But note that the SAE 30 viscosity is much lower than the SAE 40 grades. I can produce more charts like this if interested.
Data from Anton Parr, in instrument manufacturer for the oil industry. Viscosity of Engine Oil – viscosity table and viscosity chart | Anton Paar Wiki
Oil drastically changes viscosity with temperature.
This plot shows the change in Kinematic Viscosity, the normal flow of an oil, with temperature in Centigrade (°C). 100°C = 212°F.
I chose 15W-40, 10W-40 and SAE 30 as examples. The low temperature (0°C, 32°F) viscosity is very high for 15W-40 but drops drastically for the 10W-40. This allows easier starting and quicker oil pressure buildup. The scale of this chart is too large to show the viscosity near 100°C, so expand the scale.
Here you can see that the 15W-40 and 10W-40 are about the same as the SAE 40 grade represents KV @ 100°C. But note that the SAE 30 viscosity is much lower than the SAE 40 grades. I can produce more charts like this if interested.
Data from Anton Parr, in instrument manufacturer for the oil industry. Viscosity of Engine Oil – viscosity table and viscosity chart | Anton Paar Wiki
This is a chart I made that was based on one in a sales booklet that explained engine oil basics. The book also dispelled a lot of misconceptions about lubes. I gave away a lot of those books as a Pennzoil rep in the '80s. I wish I'd saved one.
The chart is over simplified but helps make the concept clear. Multi-grades thin when their temperature rises, but at a slower rate than straight grades.
The chart is over simplified but helps make the concept clear. Multi-grades thin when their temperature rises, but at a slower rate than straight grades.
340six
King Of Bling
Not 100 percent sure this is the right video. He has a whole bunch and you can go down the oil rabbit hole.
He says if it has it don't add additional. More is not better.
He says if it has it don't add additional. More is not better.
Many people are thinking a lighter oil will flow faster on a coldstart to the bearings and moving parts, this is absolutely correct! BUT a thicker oil sticks way better @ the necessary lube places. We removed the valvecover on a Mercedes AMG 6.3 Liter after 16h, the camshaft and lifters were bone dry, like cleaned with brake cleaner. We run the Mercedesoil 0W40..... These engines are prone for cam and lifter failure.
I have found this to be true. I have run Valvoline straight 30 or 20w50 racing oil for 50 years in everything from a High Performance 273, to a 96 Neon DOHC ACR, to a 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0. The oil and filter gets changed every 3,000 miles and I have yet to have an oil related failure, and the 273 and Neon would get wound up to 7,000 rpm on a regular basis. 250,000 miles on both with the Cherokee having only 150,000 miles on it, none of them use a quart between oil changes to this day.
Sorry Newbomb, the SAE grade has viscosity limits for both oil flow (viscosity related to starting) and oil pumpability (a measure of wax formation and gelling). Each SAE grade from 20W to 0W drops in its cold starting (cranking and pumping) ability by 5°C (9°F). Thus a 0W oil should allow cranking & starting at -25°C (=13F). Pumpability is rated - 5°C lower than cranking as a safety measure. There are some differences between oil types, but these are minor compared to the vis grade differences.
Ok, let me clear this up.
First of all, I did NOT quote you.
Second, I wasn’t clear about what point disputed. That’s on me.
When Plymouth4onthefloor says “but a thicker oil sticks way better @ the necessary lube places” he couldn’t be more wrong.
The only way he can be correct is if he is still using oil that is made as cheaply as possible and barely meets the grade.
You well know the grading for winter grades is pretty wide and the summer grades are HUGE. In fact, IIRC a 70 grade oil doesn’t have a high end limit.
Certainly you can buy a cheap assed oil that’s a 30, barely passed the SAE testing for a 30 and in several hundred miles (if that) when the oil gets to temperature it drops out of the 30 grade and is really a 20.
Good oils (for the most part) are built to the high side of the grade so they do not fall out of grade with temperature.
To that end, if you need a 50 grade oil to seal and lubricate stuff you have a horrible oil and/or piss poor machining.
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