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Dart Sport 360

Dart Sport 360

Wanna Race?
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
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Location
Orangeville, Ontario
Here’s the plan for our build. Feel free to make comments good or bad. Maybe add things that I may have not thought of. I’m a couple weeks away from getting serious so nows a good time to cover all the bases.

I have not purchased anything but an only 1978 complete 440 to steal the block from. AC still worked.

First the other info:
It’s going in a 1979 Lil Red Express used only for Bracket Racing
Truck weighs around 3850lbs
727 with approx. 5000 ATI stall (flashed to 4500 with the old 440)
9” Strange with spool and 4.56 gears
29.5 x 10.5 slick

Now the plan for the engine… keep in mind we wrecked our old short block so we are re using what we can.
Re-using Pro System 1100 Dominator
Re-using Indy 4500 Single Plane
Re-using Indy SR Heads, Fully Ported, 60cc Chambers, Harland Sharp Full Roller Rockers.
78 440 Block
Re-use the steel main caps from the other block.
Block bored 30 over (4.35”)
440 Source 512 kit. (4.25 Stroke, 7.10” Rod)
-27 dish piston.
Calculated with my 60 cc chambers I’m thinking right around 11.5:1 compression.
Ends up at 505ci
Cam… I’ve been talking to Comp and he recommends this custom grind… 265/274 .650/.630 on a 110 lobe separation. Open to suggestions as I am not a cam expert…. Off the shelf he said 23-705-9 which is 252/263 .660/.660 on a 108 lobe separation.
Roller chain with multi keyway.
I’m thinking of going with a main stud girdle.
Going to fit the pan with external oil line and a new pump. Not sure which pump to go with, haven’t researched pumps yet.

We are hoping to go 10.5 in a 3850 lb truck… anything better would be gravy, any less a bit disappointing.

Have at it, hold no punch, let me know what you think or what I’ve forgotten.
 
those heads, gears, converter and cubic inch are gonna want ALOT of cam. i think your two choices are mucho conservative. this thing is gonna be a beast. im no expert but i think your gonna want alot more cam.
 
Hmm.. I just found the cam card from the one that was in the 440 and it's was a 23-770-9. 323/323 (@ 50 287/287). 690 lift with 108 lobe separation.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to send these old specs to comp.

The cam in the 440's power range is stated to be 5000-7200... we never ran it ove 6500-6800. I don't really want to spin this new motor over 6500.
 
As far as keeping that engine together, oiling mods and such, I must defer to the true machinists in the crowd. But I agree with younggun, the off the shelf cam comp suggested is way too mild. He!!, that could be streetable with that engine :D. I'm sure the're considering the weight of the truck, but the extra cubes and 5k stall will overwhelm that grind.

I just saw this thread, so let me think about it and run some numbers. I'll post when I have something I think will be usable for you...
 
The original "770" has a very late intake closing point and a little more int. duration then I'd be comfortable with. The 23-707-9 looks somewhat promising for the big cubes & converter?
 
You want more cam in it. I run more cam in my street/strip 500" motor on pump gas. I also would think about going with a 4.15" stroke and turn a little more rpm out of it...
 
I forgot to mention that I would definitely put a girdle in it. It really helps strengthen up the bottom end. And find a good machinist that can balance everything perfectly.
 
Well, looking at 4,000lbs wet with driver, it looks like 675/700hp will get you to your goal. Your geared just about perfect with the 29.5" tires to clear the stripe in the high 6000's @ 128/130mph range with a little converter slip. As long as the 10.5 tires hook up and the suspension works, I think your in good shape.

As far as the cam, I gave my thought... http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=744&sb=0. Just one guys opinion, so I suggest getting as much input as you can on the subject before making a final choice. It can really make or break the combo.

Good luck and keep us informed. That's gonna be a fun bracket ride for seasons to come. :thumbrig:
 
With 505 cubes and 60 cc chambers (assuming you zero deck it) getting 11.5 compression will require dished pistons. I'm a big proponent of high compression. I run about 11.5 to 1 in my 440. The cranking compression is 210 psi. I love it. I run 93 pump gas with Klotz KL-628 octane booster mixed at one ounce to one gallon and have had no detonation at all. It adds about 40 cents to the cost of a gallon of gas. If I were building your motor, I would use flat tops and wind up around 12 to 1.
 
I'm planning on -27cc dish pistons to lower the compression. I want to be at 11.5 or a little lower so I can run 94. I'm in Canada and 110 is outrageous here now. It's $90+ to fill my 6 gallon pail. I think I paid $60 to fill it at Norwalk. I figure if we are starting over we might as well try to run cheaper fuel. We might end up mixing but still it will save some money.
 
Darcy, do you have any flow numbers on the heads? If you do you could plug them into Comp's camquest program. I found it really useful with my cam selection. It might not have enough info for some of the larger grinds you are considering though.
 
I only have estimates on the flow. The guy at comp said it wasn't worth the effort to flow them. I was going to have them flowed just so I knew for sure that we had but now I'm on the fence. We deal with Competition Automotive in Maple. When I get a change to take the block to them in a couple weeks then I will pick there brain about a lot of things.
 
If the heads are fully ported - there should be a flow sheet with them. You nede that, and the volume to really pick a cam. I like the lower compression. It will keep fuel costs down and adds life to the block. I don't bother with girdles. Balance it right, run the caps, and run main studs and you're good until the top webbing gives out which is a crap shoot in terms of life span. The girdle doesn't help that. You may also want to use aluminum rods. Just watch the piston to head clearance if you're turning close to 7K.
 
If you are stuck on comp cams DEGREE IT IN!!!!! And map out the lobes. Don't install it like they want you to over the nose. I would personally call Bullet Cams and get UltraDyne lobes if you want fast ramps that make power. Just my two cents.
 
Orangepeel said:
If you are stuck on comp cams DEGREE IT IN!!!!! And map out the lobes. Don't install it like they want you to over the nose. I would personally call Bullet Cams and get UltraDyne lobes if you want fast ramps that make power. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

I really hate to come on here and say something bad about a business or company but I will. I used COMP for many years. I will not use them again. I had quality issues with the last bunch of parts I bought from them and when I contacted them about it they gave me the run around. I'd go with a different company for cams and valvetrain. COMP is now part of a conglomerate and that is not a good thing. Profit is more important that quality to them. My brother had problems with them also in the last year.
 
On my 496 raised deck, I went with T&D's, PAC springs & Comp tool steel retainers. Bullet got me a solid roller blower grind, in four days. Do yourself a favor and don't mess around with valve train components.
 
Dart Sport 360 said:
Hmm.. I just found the cam card from the one that was in the 440 and it's was a 23-770-9. 323/323 (@ 50 287/287). 690 lift with 108 lobe separation.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to send these old specs to comp.

The cam in the 440's power range is stated to be 5000-7200... we never ran it ove 6500-6800. I don't really want to spin this new motor over 6500.
Click to expand...

One thing I have seen with every cam I have ever dealt with is that the rpm range is always 500 to 1000 lower than what the cam company says a cam will deliver. I am wondering if anyone else is experiencing this also.
 
Doosterfy said:
One thing I have seen with every cam I have ever dealt with is that the rpm range is always 500 to 1000 lower than what the cam company says a cam will deliver. I am wondering if anyone else is experiencing this also.
Click to expand...

Really? I never have experienced that. They've usually been within a couple hundred rpm's one way or the other.
 
It depends how you tune it... If you're using more aggressive timing curves that might be why - or a tach off, or a dyno or butt-dyno off... Plus the engine is a package so changes in intake, carb, or exhaust, or comression will all affect the range of the cam...
 
moper said:
It depends how you tune it... If you're using more aggressive timing curves that might be why - or a tach off, or a dyno or butt-dyno off... Plus the engine is a package so changes in intake, carb, or exhaust, or comression will all affect the range of the cam...
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I have been thinking. I usually run a fairly restrictive exhaust and intake manifold in order to keep a flat hood and somewhat quiet. You mentioned compression. Does raising the compression raise or lower the rpm range. COMP claimed the cam I have now was good from 3500-6600. What I'm seeing if my Autometer tach is acurate is more like 2500-5700. I have my shift light set at 5500 and the shift is probly occuring around 5600-5700 because of the reaction time involved. When I shifted at higher rpm the et got slower. Take a look at the videos on you tube and you will see the car is very torquey and not a high revver.
 
looks like a fun set up. I'd go flat top piston, 278/286 @ .050" and run it on pump gas and a snow performance meth kit ;)

-Kenny
 
StrokerValiant said:
looks like a fun set up. I'd go flat top piston, 278/286 @ .050" and run it on pump gas and a snow performance meth kit ;)

-Kenny
Click to expand...

Have you used a meth injection kit on a high compression pump has engine and if so how well did it work? I absolutely love high compression and want my next engine to have more than the 11.5 to 1 I have now. I had an engine builder tell me no way it would work but I cannot see why it would not.
 
So... my update was lost in what will be know as the great crash of 2014... here are coles notes for future reference...

We bought a complete 1978 440 from a wreckers and disassembled it to steal the block.

The block was taken to Competition Automotive in Richmond Hill Ontario. It has been tanked and magna fluxed and everything checks out.

Competition told us that they have not had great luck in the past with 440 source kits and suggest we go with an eagle crank and rods with Wiseco pistons. Stroke will still be 4.25 with a 7.10 rod.

Competition will do all the machine work and assembly. They've done the work on our old 440 and they helped me with the 360 in my Dart.

We are hoping to get it back before Christmas but it's going to be a long wait until we can get back on the track in the spring.

If anyone is interested in a complete 440 that only needs a block and gasket kit let me know or look for my post in the mech parts for sale page

Thanks
 
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