It's a shame we have to go outside the site for a decent search function, though. I had actually forgotten that trick. Thanks for the reminder.
Overdrive in Early A
- Thread starter Earlie A
- Start date
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The search function is a program within the program that runs FABO. I bet it would be a giant turd to change to something better. The search on Mega Parts site is similar. You can't be too specific with what you ask or you won't get anything.
I'm sure it is. Joey's spoken about it before. I know it's not his fault.
1WildRT
Well-Known Member
FWIW Moparts added a link to Google Search which only searches within the site... Prior to that their search function sucked too....
The stock mounting holes for the 65 buckets are indeed sort of close to the trans tunnel. I had to redrill those holes for the passenger side since the 66 seat mounting brackets are not the same as fir 65’s. I am using a power rack from a 68 C Body wagon in the driver’s side. The outer mounting holes were in the same place as the 65’s so I had to drill new inner miunting holes. i used 65 OEM floor support brackets on sll 4 new inner holes
The wagon is not in the road yet. I’ve still got to assemble the motor then mate it to the transmission. My wife insists I get some help installing the motor/trans to the K Frame and then dropping the body over it.
Distance from the face of the bellhousing to the center of the transmission mount is 14" on the 904 in my car. I've found dimensions online for the 42rh of 15 7/8", so 1 7/8" towards the rear of the car. So, as others have done, just modify and enlarge the existing crossmember + tunnel work. The same dimension on the 200-4r is 26 7/8", so 12 7/8" farther back. While the 200-4r is shorter and smaller, it may not be worth the substantial crossmember modification (or entirely new crossmember) vs the 42rh.
On my mockup the engine mounts are in the stock location on the K Frame and the transmission crossmember bolts to the outer 2 stock location - yes, only using 2 mounting points like the
F Bodies did. The modified tranny crossmember makes up the difference.
F Bodies did. The modified tranny crossmember makes up the difference.
I've got a '64 Barracuda that's getting a 5.2 and an A500. Motor and trans are in, but the project stalled out a couple years ago. PO had chopped out the torsion bar crossmember and the hump to install a 727 (still don't understand that), so the "no turning back" line was already crossed. I made my own tunnel, but I've no idea how much of the original could have been saved since it was pretty much gone. Orignal bucket seats should fit fine, however.
The transmission support wasn't too hard, I made a pattern with cardboard and welded it up out of some 3/16"×2" flatbar I had on hand. Probably overkill, but I figured it'd add some strength back to the crossmember. Car's also got subframe connectors, kinda for that reason as well.
This is a big help. Looks like all the tunnel mods are in front of the seat mounting hole area, so the tunnel between the seats is not affected. Is that correct?
The car came without seats, and I've fit Sebring convertible ones in it (for the integral 3-point belts), so I can't say for sure. I'm just assuming the plates on the floor are for the factory buckets.
You've done a nice job on it, though. Get back to work! lol
That’s about the way my hump surgery ended up looking!
1WildRT
Well-Known Member
Did you add anything in the way of structural steel over the top of the trans? Or just sheet metal? Unless your getting rid of the torsion bars there needs to be some significant reinforcing of the torsion bar crossmember...
I personally have seen a vehicle which had the center removed for a 518 conversion that while being rolled off a trailer the drivers side torsion bar tore the crossmember loose from the floor & the LF of the car collapsed... The car didn't even have an engine n it... The loads generated by the suspension are transferred into that crossmember & when the car is bouncing down the road that can be some pretty serious stress
I would probably put some 1/2"x4" flat plate over the top & make sure it's burned into the tops of both sides of the crossmember...
Oh I don't know. I like it!
I replaced the hoop over the transmission with 2 pieces of 3/16" flatbar welded together (which is what I built the hump off of), then 100% to the crossmember ends. I've also meant to go back in and box/gusset from the subframe connectors toward the torsion bars, but I'll have to chop holes in the floor to weld it out.
slantsixdan
=..=
Here y'go.
Thanks. Certainly one of the more helpful threads. Pictures of the tunnel mods are nice.
kevin charles
Well-Known Member
Here’s my two cents:
If you are planning on an A833OD—which I myself would recommend over any other trans for ease and for awesomeness, it’s straight-forward.
The ‘64-‘66 (and later) A-bodies came with the old iron A833 which are the same size, so the only cutting necessary is for the shifter. Brewer’s has a fiberglass tunnel piece for that, but a real steel one would be better IMHO.
If you have a pre-‘66 car, you would need to get a new driveshaft, etc., as the older ones were ball-and-trunion. You would also need all the parts like the bell, clutch, as the ones from a 903 won’t work. Obviously, if your car is a 904 car, you’ll need the pedals, Z-bar, etc.
‘66 cars began the use of conventional U-joints, so an easier swap.
The trans you need is from a late A-body or an F-body.
I had a ‘63 Signet that had this done (PO) along with a 2-bbl. and it had 3.23 gears. The car was awesome and it got 25 MPG. I plan on the same combo for my ‘66 Dart 170 postie.
I hope this helped, and if I gave any info that wasn’t spot-on, I welcome folks who know more to correct me for the sake of accuracy.
If you are planning on an A833OD—which I myself would recommend over any other trans for ease and for awesomeness, it’s straight-forward.
The ‘64-‘66 (and later) A-bodies came with the old iron A833 which are the same size, so the only cutting necessary is for the shifter. Brewer’s has a fiberglass tunnel piece for that, but a real steel one would be better IMHO.
If you have a pre-‘66 car, you would need to get a new driveshaft, etc., as the older ones were ball-and-trunion. You would also need all the parts like the bell, clutch, as the ones from a 903 won’t work. Obviously, if your car is a 904 car, you’ll need the pedals, Z-bar, etc.
‘66 cars began the use of conventional U-joints, so an easier swap.
The trans you need is from a late A-body or an F-body.
I had a ‘63 Signet that had this done (PO) along with a 2-bbl. and it had 3.23 gears. The car was awesome and it got 25 MPG. I plan on the same combo for my ‘66 Dart 170 postie.
I hope this helped, and if I gave any info that wasn’t spot-on, I welcome folks who know more to correct me for the sake of accuracy.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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If I was to do it in an early-A; I wouldn't.
If that statement irks you, read no further.
What I would do and have already done is;
I'd just install an engine with more torque and gear it to fit my needs.
Part-1 of the reason, is this:
it is impossible, with the factory-type distributor, to give the engine, any mopar engine, the optimal cruise timing it needs below about 2400 rpm, and still have the Power-Timing set right.
The optimal cruise-timing n a Lightweight-A, for 65=2400rpm, is gonna be about 52>56 degrees, or more.
To get to a Power-Timing of 36*@3600rpm, your Distributor will need a timing curve of about 1.0* per 100 rpm beginning at 1000 rpm, and an initial Idle-Timing of 10 degrees.. So at 2400 it will have ~24* total mechanical. The VA can be modified to about 22*, bringing the total cruise timing to 46* at 2400 ..
Now, you can maybe cheat a lil with a two-stage curve, and pick up maybe 3>4 degrees at 2400 for a total around maybe 50*; but still not 54*
Or maybe you can over-advance the Idle Timing to say 18*, run into detonation and have to slow the top end down, and get maybe 52..
But to get to 54/56* is impossible. Driving any slower is only gonna make the fuel-economy worse. So I see no point in cruising any slower, if you have a Factory-type distributor.
My car cruises at 65= 2240, but it cannot make optimal timing, so the fuel economy gets better with a li more speed. 2400 is 70mph.
To solve this, I have installed a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing device with a range of 15 degrees, so I can, find the perfect timing, right from the front seat, for any circumstance.
If you try to run 65 below 2400 rpm without optimizing the timing, the fuel economy will suffer, I can guarantee it.
On the other side of the coin,
Part 2
running an overdrive of .67 to .72, is about the same as having another gear; which means, to cruise 65=2400 rpm, you can run 3.91s.
Well, the 4L80 has a first gear of 2.48 and so, your engine will deliver, to the rear, whatever torque comes out the crank x 2.48 x3.91.
Say you have a small engine and a stock stall around 1800 rpm.
Say 200 ftlbs comes out the crank at 1800. Then
200 x 2.48 x 3.91 = 1939 into the rear axles. So then that is all she wrote.
Ok lets swap a bigger engine in, run 65=2400 still, but no more overdrive, The 2400rpm cruise means you gotta run a rear gear of 2.76; but you still want at least 1939ftlbs, as before. So then, lets swap to an A999 with a lock-up and a 2.74 first gear.
1939/(2.74 x 2.76) =256 ftlbs required from the engine, which is ;
(256/200) less 1=28% more torque, so you need to pump up the 200ftpounder to that, or just slip in an engine that much bigger with the same build spec, or some combination of the two. and thus your car will be the same quick, off the line, with 2.76s and the bigger engine, as it was with 3.91s and the smaller engine.
But wait; there are 4 small-blocks to chose from and hundreds of ways to build them, to meet the goals of 65=2400rpm, and still make 1939 ftlbs on the start line. So you don't have to stick with such a modest amount of torque at zero mph. I mean even 4000 ftlbs is possible, with a relatively modest SBM.
Okay, I'll bet your car already has 2.76s and a 904, so it's a natural for a modest 360, which can easily make 300 ftlbs at 2400. Out the back door, that would be, say 300 x2.45 x 2.76 =2028 ftlbs, already more than the above example of 1939ftlbs. and it's a stock 8.0 engine!
Say you chose a 5.9Magnum, I bet she makes 350@ 2400, now yur looking at; 350 x 2.45 x 2.76= 2367!
Lets put an A999 behind that 5.9M and add a 2800 stall. Now she is up to 380 x 2.74 x 2.76 = 2874 ftlbs. and still cruising at 65=2400rpm plus slippage, say 2500 on the tach.
I have done this with a fully stock long-block, lo-compression 318, an A998 (no LU), a 2800 stall, and 2.76s in the heavier Second gen Barracuda, with excellent results.
Well ok, I installed a 4bbl on it and headers with dual 3inch exhaust, but that shouldn't affect it's economy much if at all, assuming I kept my foot out of it, which is always hard for me.
Now, some guys on FABO will remind me that 3.91s will wind thru the gears faster, and so I'm out to lunch.
Well I won't argue that, but unless you already have the Biggest small block under the hood, so what.
With the little engine, with the 4L80, and gears of 2.48 x 3.91 at will hit 5000 rpm at about 35 mph and when it shifts, the Rs will fall to 2980 and dog-city. Whereas
with the bigger engine, the A999 and 2.76s, 5000 will get you 45 mph before the shift, while the lil engine is just coming up to speed at 3800 in 1.48 Second gear.
So I mean, draw your own conclusions, about that.
My conclusion is that, with 2.76 gears; the 5.9 Magnum/ any TF trans with a LU convertor, will/should, fit the bill. Failing a 5.9M, even a a small-cam 340, or a hi-compression 318 with a 2800/no LU, should fit the bill, allbeit with a cruise-rpm about a 100 rpm higher.
If I was forced to use a 273, I would run a small turbo on it, just to pump up the low-rpm torque, and run any trans with still, the 2.76s..... cuz 65=2400 is pretty sweet, and I can't run big timing anyway with a turbo.....
What I mean and am trying to say is, installing an overdrive into your Early-A is a pretty big deal, and I'm just offering an easier and probably cheaper alternative that can see you running down the road in a matter of days;
Not months or years. Ok so
Happy HotRodding
If that statement irks you, read no further.
What I would do and have already done is;
I'd just install an engine with more torque and gear it to fit my needs.
Part-1 of the reason, is this:
it is impossible, with the factory-type distributor, to give the engine, any mopar engine, the optimal cruise timing it needs below about 2400 rpm, and still have the Power-Timing set right.
The optimal cruise-timing n a Lightweight-A, for 65=2400rpm, is gonna be about 52>56 degrees, or more.
To get to a Power-Timing of 36*@3600rpm, your Distributor will need a timing curve of about 1.0* per 100 rpm beginning at 1000 rpm, and an initial Idle-Timing of 10 degrees.. So at 2400 it will have ~24* total mechanical. The VA can be modified to about 22*, bringing the total cruise timing to 46* at 2400 ..
Now, you can maybe cheat a lil with a two-stage curve, and pick up maybe 3>4 degrees at 2400 for a total around maybe 50*; but still not 54*
Or maybe you can over-advance the Idle Timing to say 18*, run into detonation and have to slow the top end down, and get maybe 52..
But to get to 54/56* is impossible. Driving any slower is only gonna make the fuel-economy worse. So I see no point in cruising any slower, if you have a Factory-type distributor.
My car cruises at 65= 2240, but it cannot make optimal timing, so the fuel economy gets better with a li more speed. 2400 is 70mph.
To solve this, I have installed a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing device with a range of 15 degrees, so I can, find the perfect timing, right from the front seat, for any circumstance.
If you try to run 65 below 2400 rpm without optimizing the timing, the fuel economy will suffer, I can guarantee it.
On the other side of the coin,
Part 2
running an overdrive of .67 to .72, is about the same as having another gear; which means, to cruise 65=2400 rpm, you can run 3.91s.
Well, the 4L80 has a first gear of 2.48 and so, your engine will deliver, to the rear, whatever torque comes out the crank x 2.48 x3.91.
Say you have a small engine and a stock stall around 1800 rpm.
Say 200 ftlbs comes out the crank at 1800. Then
200 x 2.48 x 3.91 = 1939 into the rear axles. So then that is all she wrote.
Ok lets swap a bigger engine in, run 65=2400 still, but no more overdrive, The 2400rpm cruise means you gotta run a rear gear of 2.76; but you still want at least 1939ftlbs, as before. So then, lets swap to an A999 with a lock-up and a 2.74 first gear.
1939/(2.74 x 2.76) =256 ftlbs required from the engine, which is ;
(256/200) less 1=28% more torque, so you need to pump up the 200ftpounder to that, or just slip in an engine that much bigger with the same build spec, or some combination of the two. and thus your car will be the same quick, off the line, with 2.76s and the bigger engine, as it was with 3.91s and the smaller engine.
But wait; there are 4 small-blocks to chose from and hundreds of ways to build them, to meet the goals of 65=2400rpm, and still make 1939 ftlbs on the start line. So you don't have to stick with such a modest amount of torque at zero mph. I mean even 4000 ftlbs is possible, with a relatively modest SBM.
Okay, I'll bet your car already has 2.76s and a 904, so it's a natural for a modest 360, which can easily make 300 ftlbs at 2400. Out the back door, that would be, say 300 x2.45 x 2.76 =2028 ftlbs, already more than the above example of 1939ftlbs. and it's a stock 8.0 engine!
Say you chose a 5.9Magnum, I bet she makes 350@ 2400, now yur looking at; 350 x 2.45 x 2.76= 2367!
Lets put an A999 behind that 5.9M and add a 2800 stall. Now she is up to 380 x 2.74 x 2.76 = 2874 ftlbs. and still cruising at 65=2400rpm plus slippage, say 2500 on the tach.
I have done this with a fully stock long-block, lo-compression 318, an A998 (no LU), a 2800 stall, and 2.76s in the heavier Second gen Barracuda, with excellent results.
Well ok, I installed a 4bbl on it and headers with dual 3inch exhaust, but that shouldn't affect it's economy much if at all, assuming I kept my foot out of it, which is always hard for me.
Now, some guys on FABO will remind me that 3.91s will wind thru the gears faster, and so I'm out to lunch.
Well I won't argue that, but unless you already have the Biggest small block under the hood, so what.
With the little engine, with the 4L80, and gears of 2.48 x 3.91 at will hit 5000 rpm at about 35 mph and when it shifts, the Rs will fall to 2980 and dog-city. Whereas
with the bigger engine, the A999 and 2.76s, 5000 will get you 45 mph before the shift, while the lil engine is just coming up to speed at 3800 in 1.48 Second gear.
So I mean, draw your own conclusions, about that.
My conclusion is that, with 2.76 gears; the 5.9 Magnum/ any TF trans with a LU convertor, will/should, fit the bill. Failing a 5.9M, even a a small-cam 340, or a hi-compression 318 with a 2800/no LU, should fit the bill, allbeit with a cruise-rpm about a 100 rpm higher.
If I was forced to use a 273, I would run a small turbo on it, just to pump up the low-rpm torque, and run any trans with still, the 2.76s..... cuz 65=2400 is pretty sweet, and I can't run big timing anyway with a turbo.....
What I mean and am trying to say is, installing an overdrive into your Early-A is a pretty big deal, and I'm just offering an easier and probably cheaper alternative that can see you running down the road in a matter of days;
Not months or years. Ok so
Happy HotRodding
Last edited:
Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
Is the 42RH the trans used behind the 3.9 Magnum V6? How well would it take to being bolted to a 5.2 V8?
How much different is the 46RH?
Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
Why would you consider the GM 4L80e series. That is a large transmission with lineage to th TH400. The 4L60/65 are electronic and upgraded versions of the 700 R4 with a 3.07 first ratio. But that is zalso likely a bit big for an early A body.
I would first consider a Mopar trans that bolts up to the engine that traces roots to the 904. Next option to me would be the 200 4R with its 2.76 first and .67 OD. This transmission was intended for GM 6 cylinder and 305 V8's. They were beefed up a bit by the General for use in the Regal T Types and Grand National turbo V6 application. The aftermarket got into the frey for the modded V6 drag racers putting out over 600HP. So they can be built to last and do not usually require a stand alone controller. The transmission is fairly compact so fitment is easier.
I would first consider a Mopar trans that bolts up to the engine that traces roots to the 904. Next option to me would be the 200 4R with its 2.76 first and .67 OD. This transmission was intended for GM 6 cylinder and 305 V8's. They were beefed up a bit by the General for use in the Regal T Types and Grand National turbo V6 application. The aftermarket got into the frey for the modded V6 drag racers putting out over 600HP. So they can be built to last and do not usually require a stand alone controller. The transmission is fairly compact so fitment is easier.
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