Plumbing the fuel system, the right way?

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PhillH

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So now that I've taken the FI plunge, does anybody want to point me in the right direction with the best fittings and what nots? Is there a kit? I don't know sizing yet as I have not ordered the tank yet. Lines and fittings of quality here is the name of the game, I think the Earls fittings have the no leak when you disconnect feature, I like that. I'm thinking I need to get new hardlines verse running rubber like it has now. Has anybody ran new PRE-BENT hard lines on a 71 to 73 Scamp / Dart? Barring some rediculous pricing, I would rather spend more on quality and ease of install than the cheap route. I already spoke with MoparMagnum and they are setting me up with a tank and pump, now I just have to get the fuel from back to front. Thanks in advance.
 
I run a cell, and used aluminum line (coil). I didn't go with pre-bent because I changed the routing a touch in a couple spots. I saved my OEM line because when I go with a fuel setup I will copy it for the return. I used all earls fittings, with AN adapters to the hard line. I bought the aluminum tubing at an HVAC supply, 50 ft coil was dirt cheap. It was an extremely easy job and came out ripper.
If you plan on hitting the track IDT you can have more than 16" of rubber line on the car, but my memory is not so great. Coloradoan.
 
I used Teflon and an fittings from anfittingsdirect.com

Lots of selection and good prices.
 
Thanks guys. So just so I have this straight, I have never plumbed a system front to back before, do I have to go under and plan everything out , fittings, bends, adapters, clamps and all this to make a list? Figure out the thread size, course and all?
 
No aluminum tubing on a street car. Much more likely to crack.

I did the pre-bent 3/8 line for the feed and I made a return line out of steel roll for my return and ran it down the framerail and subframe connector to the back.

The easiest is PTFE hose with cushion clamps. I used the Aeroquip stuff for my flexible lines and it was really easy...not cheap though.

I think the best way is anywhere under the car where it could get dragged on something or yanked on to use a steel line and use the flex line near the gas tank and where you are connecting between the engine and chassis.

I have an -AN flaring tool for steel line (Parker Rotoflare) and that makes it easy.


 
do I have to go under and plan everything out , fittings, bends, adapters, clamps and all this to make a list? Figure out the thread size, course and all?

YES!!!

First, if this is a street application, I would be more inclined to run steel lines for durability. Aluminum can bend or puncture pretty easily. You can get a coil of coated line from a parts store pretty cheap or go hog wild and use stainless. Stainless is hard to flare though and can be tough to bend. Stainless can also leak at first, you have to re-seat fittings sometimes before they seal 100%. Stainless is nice but can be more of a pain than it's worth.

Stay away from rubber line and hose clamps with EFI. EFI is around 5-10x more pressure than a carb. depending on what your pump is putting out. Don't even think about using that junk. Use -AN style hose ends that screw into tube nuts from a hard line.

Speaking of flares, if you choose to go the -AN route, then you will need a 37* flaring tool. Regular flares are 45* and are not compatible with -AN fittings. Don't skimp here, you will be sorry. Crappy tools suck to work with and poor flares that wind up leaking will make you want to shoot yourself. AMHIK.

You will need a tubing bender. You can get the cheap 3-in-1 type from the parts store or Sears but I would look for Imperial Eastman benders. Sometimes you may find the cheap one works better for some particular situation but you will rely heavily on the Imperial for most bending operations.

A far as brands - Earl's, Russell and Aeroquip all make really nice fittings and adapters for every permutation of line you could think of. You will become immersed in the world of fittings and adapters. I have a lot of XRP fittings because that's what they sell at my local speed shop. I prefer the other brands but have had no problems with any of their parts. A lot of guys swear by XRP too. You can't go wrong with any of those brands.

For flex hose, I like the Russell Pro Classic black woven stuff. They make matching fittings for it, looks cool and works great. Super light too and easy to work with. Earl's, Aeroquip and XRP all make their own brand, all good stuff. I have been using socketless too which might be a little tougher stuff than the woven.

Use insulated line/Adel clamps to hold stuff in place and to keep it from chafing other stuff and vibrating like crazy. Try to use bulkhead fittings if lines pass through things like cross members or sheet metal. Remember to use heat shielding stuff if the lines go near exhaust. Thermotec, DEI etc. makes what you need. Just remember to put the heat shield over the lines before you put the fittings on or you might not be able to get the stuff on.

There is a good book to get for reference called Hi Performance Plumbing and Fasteners by Mike Mavrigian. Please try to buy from Motorbooks, not the all-encompassing, monolithic web store that is taking over every facet of independent commerce on this planet.
 
Ok, wow! Thanks for the the great info. I have knowledge of the terms but never used any of it so half of that sounds like another language. Now I know what my reading material will be for the next few days. Thanks again.
 
I'm in the process of installing a fuel cell in my Duster. I'm using Jegs brand stainless steel braided hose and AN fittings. I'm happy with the quality of the hose and fittings. I ended up forgetting to order one particular fitting and I ended up finding it at my local Napa warehouse for cheaper than the Same fitting on Jegs. So I'd plan out the fuel system, figure out what fittings you need then head over to Napa or whatever Parts store and see if you can't get the whole system cheaper than on Jegs or Summit.

photo.php
 
By sometime in next week or so, we should have a complete kit for all the fittings and lines, mad in usa and priced right. stay tuned...
 
MM are you talking steel hard lines or what? Connection from the hard lines or flex all the way? I'm definatley interested.
 
Some general tips:
- Use the PTFE for sure for braided lines; rubber will rot under the braid and you cannot inspect it. Rubber inside of braid also tends to have pinhole problems from time to time and will weep/seep and smell if inside a car. (Inside is not suggested for a street car!)
- As much steel line as you can for the main runs is a good idea for durability and cost.
- The advice to not use AL line is spot on, for all the reasons given.
- If you use a plain rubber line anywhere, there are fuel injection hose clamps made for higher pressure rubber lines; don't use standard hose clamps. Despite the advice above to stay completely away from rubber lines, they are used all the time on production cars for decades with 50-70 psi on boosted and non-boosted systems, and work fine. You just need to use the right hose and clamps and proper matching fittings. Our turbo'd rally Starion has used standard fuel injection hose and clamps for thousands of hard rally miles, with line pressures approaching 70 psi.
- The filter mounting in the pix above is problematic, IMO; too likely to be snagged.
 
MM are you talking steel hard lines or what? Connection from the hard lines or flex all the way? I'm definatley interested.

AN fittings from pump to filter/regulator, filter to steel, steel to engine line(magnums have braided fuel line to frame.)

Steel can be sourced cheaply in roll or you can use donor line if you have whole swap vehicle.
 
There is alot of great info here, thanks.
MM you know what I spec'd for my tank, if this is going to work for me and truly will be done within a couple weeks, I might wait for your kit. What do you think?
 
I did mine with Fragola braided hose from the fuel cell and to the filters and pump. From the filter after the pump is a new copper-nickle 3/8" easybend line. Then a bulkhead fitting to get into the engine compartment. More Fragola braided hose to the fuel rails and regulator. Then used the stock fuel line as the return. I got inverted flare to A/N adapter fittings to go from hard line to the braided hose.
 
Since you've already commited yourself to running high pressure for the entire length of the car by buying a tank and pump. Whatever you do, plan out your system well, use quality components and post pictures of your system here so folks can inspect the routing and set-up issues.

Also, be sure to use appropriate load rated electrical feeds with the regular fuel related safety devices.
 
Since you've already commited yourself to running high pressure for the entire length of the car by buying a tank and pump. Whatever you do, plan out your system well, use quality components and post pictures of your system here so folks can inspect the routing and set-up issues.

Also, be sure to use appropriate load rated electrical feeds with the regular fuel related safety devices.

Yes I am trying to do it right, the wire side should not be too difficult using the search here. It's the plumbing side that concerns me the most. With all the info in this thread now I feel a little more secure.
 
Phill, we just signed on with a new supplier/wholesaler that sells USA made AN fittings in red/blue or black fittings as well as black and blue flex hose for quick fit fittings and braided lined for regular AN fittings. Quick fittings refers to the easier to install type. Regular AN with braid line can be a real pain to assemble at times. They said it would take a week to get in system so I can order. Shouldnt be a problem to meed time line. I will keep you informed.
 
Some general tips:
- Use the PTFE for sure for braided lines; rubber will rot under the braid and you cannot inspect it. Rubber inside of braid also tends to have pinhole problems from time to time and will weep/seep and smell if inside a car. (Inside is not suggested for a street car!)
- As much steel line as you can for the main runs is a good idea for durability and cost.
- The advice to not use AL line is spot on, for all the reasons given.
- If you use a plain rubber line anywhere, there are fuel injection hose clamps made for higher pressure rubber lines; don't use standard hose clamps. Despite the advice above to stay completely away from rubber lines, they are used all the time on production cars for decades with 50-70 psi on boosted and non-boosted systems, and work fine. You just need to use the right hose and clamps and proper matching fittings. Our turbo'd rally Starion has used standard fuel injection hose and clamps for thousands of hard rally miles, with line pressures approaching 70 psi.
- The filter mounting in the pix above is problematic, IMO; too likely to be snagged.

It's literally 1/4" from the subframe connector immediately inboard, and 1.5" above the bottom of it. It's also connected on all sides by steel line. If that got hit the exhaust would be gone...and the car would probably be totaled. It's kind of like saying that you'd hit something and it'd break your seat bolts off.
 
It's literally 1/4" from the subframe connector immediately inboard, and 1.5" above the bottom of it. It's also connected on all sides by steel line. If that got hit the exhaust would be gone...and the car would probably be totaled. It's kind of like saying that you'd hit something and it'd break your seat bolts off.
LOL... yeah I know... I've heard all the rationale. Multiple times. I tech inspect for rallies (and for circle track racing in the past) and that would not be accepted by anyone.

You are forgetting about rocks and other crap being kicked up; it will take one part out and leave everything else intact so claiming that the car would be totaled before this got hit is is failing to look at the whole picture. Just sayin'....all stock fuel filters are located are mounted in more protected locations for a reason. Being that it carries fuel is why it needs to be treated with more care.

I fret over the guys who put cages in their street car and drive around with no padding on it near their heads; it will take just one fender bender to have a cracked noggin'. Or my sister-in-law who refused to wear her seat belt when young; she has had neck problems and a recent operation ever since she tried to take out a windshield with her face in a minor parking lot incident. Things happen that we don't expect.

And I am not being personally critical or trying to rag on anything in particular; I'm just making observations that may make others stop and think about a safety matter. On the plus side, at least it is outside the car, which is a big help in any fuel spillage situation.
 
LOL... yeah I know... I've heard all the rationale. Multiple times. I tech inspect for rallies (and for circle track racing in the past) and that would not be accepted by anyone.

You are forgetting about rocks and other crap being kicked up; it will take one part out and leave everything else intact so claiming that the car would be totaled before this got hit is is failing to look at the whole picture. Just sayin'....all stock fuel filters are located are mounted in more protected locations for a reason. Being that it carries fuel is why it needs to be treated with more care.

I fret over the guys who put cages in their street car and drive around with no padding on it near their heads; it will take just one fender bender to have a cracked noggin'. Or my sister-in-law who refused to wear her seat belt when young; she has had neck problems and a recent operation ever since she tried to take out a windshield with her face in a minor parking lot incident. Things happen that we don't expect.

And I am not being personally critical or trying to rag on anything in particular; I'm just making observations that may make others stop and think about a safety matter. On the plus side, at least it is outside the car, which is a big help in any fuel spillage situation.

Here's a fresh camera angle at horizontal so you can see where I'm coming from here. I'm pretty sure you'd have a totaled car before anything that would rip it off will touch it:
fuelfilterlocation_zpskpwbwhzr.jpg


Rocks getting kicked up? Seriously, if the car is going forward the thing is like 5" behind the torsion bar crossmember. It's also steel. I don't think anyone's building a dirt track car here.

This is where it is on my 2004 Colorado...right in front of the tank. MUCH more likely to get hit. In fact, my truck is lowered and unfortunately I had a bottle jack make it under the truck and it physically dented the fuel filter in this location.

newpix015.jpg


This is where it is on a 1997-2003 Grand Prix. Immediately in front of the rear trailing arm mount and about 1/2" above the frame rail

dscf0027.jpg


fuel_filter_0.jpg


Now, please tell me how mine is more vulnerable. Other than having a support (which I probably will build at some point here soon), I'm not really seeing the issue here. Not too many places under the car you can put a normal OE style fuel filter.
 
GoldDuster....I still think your car looks cool. Please don't yell at me....LOL
And I think your filter is as safe as anywhere I would put it.
 
GoldDuster....I still think your car looks cool. Please don't yell at me....LOL
And I think your filter is as safe as anywhere I would put it.

No worries!

I'm only defending myself against the keyboard warriors. If it was dangerous, I wouldn't have done it. You'll also notice that it's as far away as possible from sources of ignition like the exhaust. The factory fuel line runs through that area (the unused tab shown in the photo is for the factory fuel line).

The most important things...Don't put connections above the exhaust, don't put them anywhere near the suspension where it could be traveled into, and avoid putting them in the wheelwell...and NOT in the passenger compartment.

I had to make an unavoidable connection to a flex line near the header for the return. I would not have done this on the feed line as it's at a much higher pressure and volume.

The gas isn't too dangerous until it has something to ignite it.

This is the tool you want for AN flaring btw: http://spenceraircraft.com/roto-flaring-tool-alt-part-roto-flare-212fb.html
 
I need replace my hard lines from the tank up, this is part of the plan. I had good luck with Fine Lines using their prebent transmission lines, I'm thinking of calling them and asking if the can make both prebent in 3/8 instead of the vent line in 1/4. That may be a solution to my return.
 
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