'Pop's Engine' another 440 on the dyno.

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IQ52

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Dad built a 440 for his truck, started it a year or so before he died. That was, what man, 13 years ago? He finished it and stood looking at the truck through the living room window and said, "Well, I got it the way I want it and I'll never get to enjoy it." 'Coupla weeks later he was gone.

So I inherited the truck and drove it briefly........detonation city. I couldn't get it to stop! Parked it. Learned a lot since then.........hopefully.

So now my son decided it was time to do some cylinder head tests we've been talking about. The low compression 440 we tested awhile back is in a '72 Satellite and on it's way to NJ so it's not available. It was time to pull 'Pop's Engine', check the detonation issue and see if we could use it as the dyno mule.
 
Never did find anything really terrible in the engine. 452 heads dad ported, L2355 forged 6-pack pistons, .012" deck height, 9.5:1 compression, 1.6 Crane Gold Race rockers, Smith Brothers pushrods, some kind of 7 degree spring retainers I had never seen before.

I guess the Comp 260H 212/212 @ .050 cam and the stock distributor that had 40 degrees mechanical advance is probably what resulted in the detonatiion. The fact that the retainer to seal clearance was insufficient and the seals were getting destroyed letting the valves suck oil into the combustion chamber didn't help either.

The bottom end was still holding 70 PSI oil pressure so we'll use the short block to build the mule.

I'm guessing we'll start with a Comp XE285HL and the 346 heads with the stock 2.08/1.74 valves. They're flowing,

.100.............88/59
.200...........164/114
.300...........210/158
.400...........236/194
.500...........259/211
.600...........270/224
.700...........280/234

With the 1.6 rockers we'll have .574 lift. There are a lot of intake manifolds laying around here but we'll start with the Edlebrock Performer RPM that Pop had on the engine. I'll have to modify the distributor so that it has no more than 14-15 degrees mechanical advance. That'll work until we drop in the old 1967 Racer Brown 72R Straddle Roller camshaft.

We'll run the 346 heads in different variations until we have the flows in the 300 cfm range to get a direct comparison to flow and horsepower, and then make a switch to our ported Indy EZ heads that are flowing right at 350 cfm @ .600". I've wondered what kind of effect that much flow would have with a small cam like the XE285HL. Trouble is, the small 75cc combustion chamber will result in a static compression that I consider way too much for that small of a cam on pump gas. Maybe use the roller to keep the dynamic down to test the differences. We'll just have to see how it all shakes out.
 
I'll put a check mark on this one too. P.S. IQ, if you get a set of heads from Merlin, take care of him he is a good frind of mine.
 
Im keeping an eye on this one, should be fun. I wish we didnt live 2500 miles apart, these kinds of projects are fun to work on.
 
KENTON said:
I'll put a check mark on this one too. P.S. IQ, if you get a set of heads from Merlin, take care of him he is a good frind of mine.
Click to expand...

I've heard nothing yet, that I remember, from a Merlin.

MRL Performance said:
Im keeping an eye on this one, should be fun. I wish we didnt live 2500 miles apart, these kinds of projects are fun to work on.
Click to expand...

You're right Mike, fun these are.

Pop's 452 heads that he originally built this engine with were using 2.14/1.81 valves and the flows he recorded on the intake were,

.107".........85 cfm
.214".......166 cfm
.321".......218 cfm
.428".......240 cfm
.535".......265 cfm
.645........280 cfm

and in 1997 with the 260H cam it dyno'd 404 HP @ 4800 rpm and 483 lb-ft @ 3400 rpm.

It's going to be interesting to see how it does with the 346 heads with 2.08/1.74 valves that are flowing roughly the same but with the XE285HL cam. The compression is down some now to 8.9:1 with the 346 heads at 94.4 cc's and the pistons with the additional flycut at 7.9 cc volume.

Okay, I'm off to start working on the stock distributor and take out some of that excessive mechanical advance. I just pre-oiled the engine about 30 minutes ago, 80 psi cold with the drill motor.
 
More flow, smaller valve, smaller port size all = MORE POWER. If we can get 315cfm out of small block heads with 2.08 valves, why not big block. Some times big valves just get in the way LOL
 
:happy1:

always a treat watching you guys work...one of you guys will be getting my "junk" 915 heads for use on a 383.
 
MRL Performance said:
More flow, smaller valve, smaller port size all = MORE POWER. If we can get 315cfm out of small block heads with 2.08 valves, why not big block. Some times big valves just get in the way LOL
Click to expand...

Good answer. The guy I work/worked for(sales),thinks this way . He knocked 270-ish ,with the Mopar 1.97 style valve on R.H.S. La heads. Sorry to the op: Those ARE nice numbers,with a 2.08 intake iron RB production head.
 
The 440 is bolted to the dyno so I'm a little nervous and bored. The above post got me thinking about some small block flow figures. RHS LA heads 1) OOTB 1.92 intake, 2) ported 1.94 intake, 3) ported 2.05 intake and then 4) ported "J" 2.02 intake

Lift...........OOTB..............1.94...........2.05.............J 2.02

.100...........57...................77............78.................78
.200..........124.................144...........147...............139
.300..........184.................191...........203...............187
.400..........230.................234...........241...............232
.500..........255.................264...........275...............270
.600..........257.................280...........296...............292
.700..........249.................283...........306...............298

These flows were from years ago and we've learned a bunch since then. So who knows how things might change with some more work. We just haven't done much serious small block work since 2010 with the cracked RHS head (1.94 valve) on the 292ci/273, 440 HP with water roaring outta the exhaust. Welded the head up and put them on the shelf. Someday we'll pull them down and build another small block.

Okay back to the 440. I don't see why the 346 heads won't go over 300 cfm but I think it will take a bigger valve. Maybe we're all, including Cody and I, in for a big suprise as the 346 heads are the one's we've the least experience with. Yet, they are very similar to the 452's really flat port and they've gone over 300 cfm.

I think we'll be breaking in the cam in about 2 hours if all goes well. Hope none of the neighbors were big partiers last night. The exhaust exits the side of the building towards the most distant neighbors, but you never know.
 
MRL Performance said:
More flow, smaller valve, smaller port size all = MORE POWER. If we can get 315cfm out of small block heads with 2.08 valves, why not big block. Some times big valves just get in the way LOL
Click to expand...

Something i tell people all the time, amazing the difference in response when someone with an overhead says it.
 
IQ52 said:
Never did find anything really terrible in the engine. 452 heads dad ported, L2355 forged 6-pack pistons, .012" deck height, 9.5:1 compression, 1.6 Crane Gold Race rockers, Smith Brothers pushrods, some kind of 7 degree spring retainers I had never seen before.

I guess the Comp 260H 212/212 @ .050 cam and the stock distributor that had 40 degrees mechanical advance is probably what resulted in the detonatiion. The fact that the retainer to seal clearance was insufficient and the seals were getting destroyed letting the valves suck oil into the combustion chamber didn't help either.

The bottom end was still holding 70 PSI oil pressure so we'll use the short block to build the mule.

I'm guessing we'll start with a Comp XE285HL and the 346 heads with the stock 2.08/1.74 valves. They're flowing,

.100.............88/59
.200...........164/114
.300...........210/158
.400...........236/194
.500...........259/211
.600...........270/224
.700...........280/234

With the 1.6 rockers we'll have .574 lift. There are a lot of intake manifolds laying around here but we'll start with the Edlebrock Performer RPM that Pop had on the engine. I'll have to modify the distributor so that it has no more than 14-15 degrees mechanical advance. That'll work until we drop in the old 1967 Racer Brown 72R Straddle Roller camshaft.

We'll run the 346 heads in different variations until we have the flows in the 300 cfm range to get a direct comparison to flow and horsepower, and then make a switch to our ported Indy EZ heads that are flowing right at 350 cfm @ .600". I've wondered what kind of effect that much flow would have with a small cam like the XE285HL. Trouble is, the small 75cc combustion chamber will result in a static compression that I consider way too much for that small of a cam on pump gas. Maybe use the roller to keep the dynamic down to test the differences. We'll just have to see how it all shakes out.
Click to expand...

good numbers, sad about the way your dad passed without being able to enjoy his finished work. Yeah the distributor with 40 degrees isnt very good.lol The numbers you have are pretty good with a 2.08. nice work.
 
MRL Performance said:
Im keeping an eye on this one, should be fun. I wish we didnt live 2500 miles apart, these kinds of projects are fun to work on.
Click to expand...

I think im right in between you guys, so I can be the half way point if you guys want to have a meet lol! There is a dyno, Marlin Bogner, 96 miles east of me too lol!
 
Rats! Something ugly just had to happen. I got a sore muscle and a cramp in my left buttock from kneeling behind the dyno console to work on the cooling fan for the dyno power supply.

With that and getting a new mouse for the computer we only managed to break in the cam and install the inner valve springs.
 
just out of curiosity, how will you modify the distrib to take the advance out of it?
 
You weld up the slots for the advance weights or buy that disc from fbo ....
 
This will be interesting. The guy who built my BB said a guy up in ID used to build MOPARs. It must have been your Father.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
just out of curiosity, how will you modify the distrib to take the advance out of it?
Click to expand...

I weld the slots.

airwoofer said:
This will be interesting. The guy who built my BB said a guy up in ID used to build MOPARs. It must have been your Father.
Click to expand...

Pop got a lot of coverage when he was in California building engines for boats, Bonneville, drags, short track, off road, NASCAR. He moved to Idaho and really slowed down. Years before he left California he was asked to move east and build engines for a NASCAR team but he never told me which one. It wasn't for Petty, but Petty might remember racing against the engines, built by Bill LaRoy, when he came west to race in California. I remember the day Cale Yarborough was fuming at his crew when he couldn't pass the #93 Dodge on the back straight at the old Riverside road course. What really made it bad was the Dodge had cracked an exhaust port and was only running on seven cylinders and he still couldn't get the #11 Chevy around it.
 
Jim, I gotta tell you man. You're a peach of a guy for sharing all this info. I think a lot of times all of us get caught up in all the excitement of what you post and forget that you do this for a living and you don't have to share a thing. Awful nice of you.
 
Yup. That's him. I have an original magazine with that article in it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Jim, I gotta tell you man. You're a peach of a guy for sharing all this info. I think a lot of times all of us get caught up in all the excitement of what you post and forget that you do this for a living and you don't have to share a thing. Awful nice of you.
Click to expand...

Thank you Rob, that's nice to hear.

MRL Performance said:
Is this your old man Jim????

http://www.hyfire.com/BILL_LAROY.pdf
Click to expand...

Yep Mike, like Rob said, that's Pop.

Today the shortblock he built in 1997 made 498 lb-ft @ 3,700 rpm and 490 HP @ 5,300 rpm. Backed it up with the next run of 494 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm and 490 HP @ 5,300 rpm. We've a long way to go yet but here are the first results.

RPM...............TQ/HP

3000.............440/251
3100.............441/260
3200.............452/275
3300.............471/296
3400.............493/319
3500.............489/326
3600.............496/340
3700.............498/351
3800.............494/358
3900.............486/361
4000.............474/361
4100.............476/371
4200.............478/382
4300.............479/393
4400.............486/407
4500.............482/413
4600.............477/418
4700.............470/421
4800.............469/428
4900.............484/451
5000.............478/455
5100.............484/470
5200.............487/482
5300.............486/490
5400.............471/484
5500.............455/477
5600.............456/486
5700.............447/485

.030" over 440, 8.9:1 compression, 850 Mighty Demon, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, 1.6:1 Crane Gold Race rocker arms, Comp XE285HL cam, our ported 346 factory iron heads with stock 2.08/1.74 valves.

Pretty much covers it for now.

'cept Cody is PO'd it didn't make 500 HP.
 
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