Porting BB heads

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Sinister.

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I'm looking at porting a set of BB heads for the 451 I'm building. I have a set of 346 and 906 castings if I remember right. Since there isn't really much difference between the castings I will probably go with the set that looks the best.

I've done some reading and researching but, since this will be my first set, I want to get as much information as I can.

In your opinion what is the best way to go about porting? Where should I concentrate? What are the 'proper' tools for the job?
 
Yeah, there's a ton of difference in those two castins. The 346 are open chamber and the 915 are closed. The ports are different too. Also, it can be said that the 1967 915 heads are actually the only real HP heads offered for the big block.....sans the Max Wedge stuff. I'm not countin the MP stuff.....just factory offerins. Have you decided on your piston yet? That should dictate which head you run. With the KB280 you could run either head, but you'll need to mill off the step head if you go with the 915 because you get the quench from the head there and not the piston.
 
Sorry I had put the wrong casting number. I'm pretty sure they are 346s and 906s. I know for a fact both are open chambered, and yes, I plan on using the KB280s


Oh and any pictures that you guys might have would be great.
 
Sorry I had put the wrong casting number. I'm pretty sure they are 346s and 516s. I know for a fact both are open chambered, and yes, I plan on using the KB280s


Oh and any pictures that you guys might have would be great.

The 516s are close chamber too. lol The open chamber heads are 906, 346 and 452. those are the most popular anyway....there may be more. the 915s and 516s are both close chamber though. But all the open chamber heads are pretty much identical.
 
I used to think I was porting heads spending hours wirh a high speed grinder and flapper wheel then I had the oppertunity to put them on a flow bench only to find the flow in some instances went down If you don't have a flow bench you can't port heads. you can remove poor casting iron from the ports without hurting the flow and it might help but don't fool yourselph into beleaving heads can be ported without a bench.
 
Not worth the time and effort, especially since you can get brand new aluminum heads that weigh less and flow better for about $900 from 440Source. Most amateur head porters just end up hurting flow anyway.
 
Big block heads can be ported easily with no flow bench and even by a novice. Mopar Performance sells porting templates for the big block heads that are easy to follow. Just get your technique down on some crap heads first and then go for it.
 
Okay I went back and looked at one of my other threads and the ARE 906s and 346s lol. That sure makes me look like an idiot :p ](*,)

Actually I MIGHT have access to a flow bench, a gentleman I know had one at one point but I'm not sure if he still does. Regardless, I've seen home-ported heads with positive numbers so I want to give it a try.

As for aluminum heads, isn't going to happen, at least not right now. They will put me far over budget. Maybe sometime in the future, but not until I have it together, and running in the car for a while. I intended to practice on another set of heads and sure, I may hurt flow, but I have to start somewhere. I guarantee people who do this work professionally have screwed up a set or two of heads. I'm not looking for perfection, just some improvement.
 
Use the 346s. They have a better bowl area and exh shape than the 906s. As for what to do. You can do most of the template work by having teh valve job done by a shop that uses cutters, not stones for the seats, and have them do a 5 angle valve job on them. Then just blend the throat cut (the steepest angle and the one that tapers into the rough casting) into the port about an inch. After that, gasket match the intake port, and do not gasket match the exh side. The trick on the exh side is to keep the port as small as you can while making the 90° turn the gasses have to take gradual and smooth. Watch out, there's water in the tops of the exh ports so dont raise them much, just smooth out the top of the bump, and smooth out and minimize the exh guide area. What you DONT want to do is remove much from the short side of the exh or intake. Smoothing, ok. But no re-shaping. Amatuers make the most mistakes by thinking bigger is good and bigger than that is awesome. That's what trashes the flow at low and mid lifts and the low and mid are where the power's at.
 
I intend to keep the price low on this so I'm not sure I want to go with the 5 angle. However, I am capable of and intend to do a 3 angle job
 
I intend to keep the price low on this so I'm not sure I want to go with the 5 angle. However, I am capable of and intend to do a 3 angle job

Good advice from Moper, 3 angle valve job is all we used in the OLD days, only grind the seat till it cleans up. The farther the seats sink down the less power you make. You can blend the bowl sides to remove sharp edges, flash, and blend the bottom seat cut. Unless you know what you are doing, I would not go much farther than what Moper advises.
 
The MP engine manual doesn't even say anything about a 3 angle valve job. All it says to do is just knock that one corner off the back side of the valve. Not that the multi angle valve jobs don't have their place. In most instances though, 3 or more angles on the valve faces and seats will only net results above 5500 RPM. Most street engines are operated well below that over 90% of the time. Sinister, you did say you could do the 3 angle yourself.......I would do that as well if I had the equipment. It certainly won't hurt a thing.

I correct myself.....the MP manual does discuss multi angle valve jobs but in more of a "race only" type discussion.
 
The MP templates are for bowl porting primarily. I'm hoping this wordy response helps to understand the whys in regard to me advising you to have good head work done.
The thought behind a good seat angle is because for the best flow regardless of lift you need a clean edge on the intake valve seat between the approach, the seat angle itself, and the transition to the throat area of the port. Think of two pieces of pvc pipe that join with an elbow. Air basically behaves like a fluid when it's flowing: it doesn't turn well. Especially around sharp edges. You want to smooth any transitions that result from a change in direction. When V8 OHV engines were new, valve jobs were one angle. The seat. The point the valve and head touched and sealed. It's easy to mass produce, very forgiving in terms of ability to seal even when worn miserably, and easily duplicated as a repair procedure. This was what a valve job was in the 50s,60, and 70s. The grinding of the seat was done using a tapered pilot, and stones that grind away the material. The issues with a stone seat are these: the guides condition is irrelevant because a tapered pilot wedges itself into the guide. By its very nature this does not, and cannot locate the precise center of the guide like the valve once installed. So those pilots could be off center, causing the seat to be ground off center in relation to the valve, and the seat to be basically junk in terms of high performance. Runable, but not good. The pilot was the locator of the stones that grind the angle into the seat. One stone, one angle. There is a certain tolerance between the stone and the pilot... Wear on the pilot or stone cases the stone to be able to wander and chatter leaving a rougher, harder to seal on seat surface. Add to this the inability of some to feel and do a good stone valve job, and the associated wear on the stones as they grind... It all adds up to poorer tolerances, more out of round seats, and lost performance. In this case, "performance" means power, economy, and longevity. Not just hp. So you can grind a bad seat on a good guide (or a poor one), and the engine will run. But it won't last well, may have rocker geometry issues, and will make a fraction of the power it could make if the work was done more precisely. This is not to say stone valve jobs suck. Most do, a few don't. But the ones that don't take a ton of skill, experience, and attention during the work to be good. I've done a few stone ones and I am not that talented...lol. That's why I bought my TCM-25.
Modern engines have much tighter tolerances for machining on the heads (among other parts). 4-valve heads, rpms into the 8K range, serious boost, and emissions/reliability demanded that. If my Neon's 2.0L DOHC was made into a V8, with no other changes, the 4.0L would make 340hp. There's reasons for that. Some of them are much more precise machining. Also explains how Stock Eliminator racers can get 1.5hp per cubic and more inch from basically stock parts. So how do we get the tighter tolerances and better stuff? Technological improvement.
The multi-angle seats were initially done using stones too. But the slop in the pilot/drive/stone system kept the quality only so good. On modern heads it would not fit the bill at all. So, now we have cutters. One cutter with 3 or 5 or 7 angles, all on one holder, that has an integral straight pilot that fits the guide just as the valve does. Because its cut, not ground, there are less jagged edges between the angles of the approach, seat, and throat to hurt low lift flow, 100% concentric cuts, and we can accomplish the basic porting actions of bowl hogging and unshrouding the chamber side just by doing the valve job. A 5 angle is a 3 angle with porting...lol. One angle is added for the throat (which is what the MP templates were for the most part) and another is added for the chamber entry to remove the shrouding effects that cutting a seat deeper leaves. Not to mention the accuracy of seat depth vs valve length (critical on Mopar shaft systems), the process of cutting down guides, replacing guides, cutting and replacing valve seats, or cutting spring seats can all be done on the same machining center which cuts costs and time.
Now obviously if you have a grinder and stones in the garage and this is free work, I'm going to assume that there is some allowance being given for accepting whatever result you get in exchange for the money saved. There is no comparison between a properly done modern valve job, and anything done with a tapered pilot system. Also, if you're porting your own heads, your time has no value as again, it's all you for you. Basically, there are real reasons to spend and get high quality work if performance is the goal. And again, all around performance, not just horsepower. But if you need or want to save and sacrifice, just know going in that there is a difference.
 
Nothing wrong with tapered pilots or stones for grinding seats. Since valve lapping is the last step in grinding seats and valves, the lapping assures a round, concentric seat. People have been using stones to grind seats and valves since the inception of the internal combustion engine. Sure, cutting with a tungsten carbide blade is better, because lapping is not required and it is much faster, but saying it produces a better valve seat is misleading at best, especially since you conveniently left out the finishing process of grinding, which is lapping. Also, I never grind a seat with a questionable valve guide. If the guide is worn beyond spec (in most cases over .002") then the guid is either replaced or a bronze liner installed. With the guide clearance properly restored, the valve seat will be round and in the correct position with a tapered pilot. Yup, worn stones do chatter, but that's what they make diamond dressing wheels for. Chuck the stone up in the dresser pilot, set the angle and redress the stone. Brand new face, ready to cut. I just know you're not saying a multi angle valve job cannot be done correctly with stones. Are you really implying that here? I started doing cylinder head work in 1979 at Hogan Auto Parts and Machine Shop in Macon, Georgia owned and operated by the late Snake Hogan. He was a legend around here back in the day. I learned from him the correct way with stones on a Souix Valve grinder how to do single and multi angle valve jobs. It's not rocket science and it's not secret service CIA stuff. And it can be done just as good with a stone as with a cutter. The cutter just allows for removing that last step, lapping thus speeding the process up, allowing you to turn more work. Saying a cutter is better or more accurate is in itself, inaccurate. It is faster and nothing more. I don't give a rat's butt what anybody says, I've done the work with BOTH stones and a cutter and I know the difference. If you're a dumbass and let your stones get a groove in them and don't keep them dressed properly, yup, you better believe you'll grind some crappy *** seats. Likewise, if you try to grind seats using bad valve guides to center up your pilot like an idiot, once again, your work will be less than stellar. Most stone valve jobs suck? Really? Tell that **** to Larry Shepard, Smokey Yunick, Bob Glidden, Richard Petty, Donnie Allisoon, Cale Yarburough, Fireball Roberts, Don Garlits and on and on and on. It's just not true. Properly dressed stones will do every bit the job that any multi million dollar cumputer run cutter will do as long as it is done correctly. A man knows what the hell he's doin can read a micrometer just as good as any computer can......possibly better at times.
 
We disagree here Stroker and I figured there's going to be at least two other members that will argue it...lol.
You started doing the work in '79, and yet you believe better tooling has not been invented in 31 years? Walk around DEI and tell me how many stone valve jobs come out of there. Or Roush, or Force's shop. It's like making the argument that Studebaker had the best points ignition by comparing it to GM HEI. I carry a plug kit in my daily driver's glove box. I make use of it... But ask a good tire shop if plugging is an accepted repair for a radial tire today and they'll say no, it needs an interior patch. Yeah, a plug will seal the air in, but it's not the right way to do it any more and by not patching there are certain risks you(or the guys plugging the tire) assume. By the nature of it's execution and tooling, stones cannot do AS GOOD a job. That's what I said. Lapping does not ensure concentricity... it simply provides the best means to the closest you can get to it. You need to lap in a stone job because that's the step that blends the inaccuracies from the mating surface of the seat and valve. It's bad, so it gets blended. It's the ketchup of the valve job world...lol. A properly done job with a floating head and cutters, does not need lapping. I'm not saying a monkey with the best equipment in the world couldn't screw it up. God knows most Edelbrocks and Indys are a mess so good equipment won't ensure teh perfect job eitehr. But I'll bet a cheesebuger that anything you do with stones and tapered pilots is worse than if you did a set on my guy's Serdi. Not because you suck. But because as good as you can get it, still isnt as good as the top of the line equipment with a guy as good as you are.
I'd be curious to put a runout gage on a stone job with a slightly worn guide... Let's say, .003" clearance stem to guide in the direction of heaviest stress. Then the pilot goes in. Let's say by going 90° to the wear we can get it within 1° of perfectly straight perpendicular to the seat. Now we use the stone for the actual seat angle. You've got at least .001-.002" for clearance of the stone holder and pilot. Adding the possibility of another 2° of rocking, especially when the drive is turned on and off. So we're already at a possiblyworst 3° off perpendicular, and that's at the centerline of the valve stem. At 1" out from that (2.02 valve) you honestly believe you can get a perfect straight and concentric grind with a perfectly dressed stone? How often does the stone get dressed? Because the first grind will be different from the last one if you dress after every touch on the head, but you knew that.
Now compare that to a one pc. straight pilot, with a floating head or table, that will be the same spec as the valve's stem to guide clearance (.0015"), with no additional clearances to take into account, all the angles cut in one plunge into the guide, and no starting or stopping with the cutter touching the head?
I don't care who is doing the work. A better tool means a better job. Period. That was my point.
 
What I'm sayin is.....all them guys you made mention of WERE usin stones at SOME point back in time......and not too terribly in the distant past. They were runnin some pretty damned fast times with those type valve jobs. Carbide tipped cutter valve jobs are not the end all be all number reason why modern engines are more efficient and "better". There's not a "one" reason answer there.......BUT if "I" personally had to pick one thing that did contribute more than anything else, it would be modern electronic fuel injection. Perhaps I can put it another way. I know peole who run in the 8s at over 160 MPH who have had valve jobs done with stones. If a stone type valve job will run that fast, that's good enough for me.

....and for the record, I agree with you FAR more than disagree. I just like stirrin the pot. ;)
 
Be patient, save up some money , and all that labor time, and look around for a good USED pair of Edelbrock 84cc big block heads. They ARE out there . They will be much better all around than a 40 year old factory iron head ---even if ported.

JUST MY OPINION !!
 
If you plan on taking on this job, I advise you do ALOT of reading, & maybe practice on a junk BB head 1st., I took on this job on a set of 906s, before anything i did, my machinest did a 30 deg. backcut on the valves with a 3 angle VJ, I used a new set of stainless "stock size" valves, Your going to spend alot of hours i'll say that, is it worth it, just depends, I'll never do it again, after i did mine, they flowed 268/199 @ around 550 lift. Forget the MP templates, you can go past them, at least i did, either way you go, have fun with it, I used high speed cutters.
 
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