Pump gas or race fuel?

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I went to wallace dynamic compression ratio calculator, and entered....
8 cyl
4.03 bore
4.0 stroke
6.123 rod length
C.r. 11.47
Ivc abdc 70°
Boost 0
Altitude 1000ft.
The results...effective stroke, 2.98", dynamic c.r. 8.8, dynamic cranking pressure 179.71 lbs.
 
I went to wallace dynamic compression ratio calculator, and entered....
8 cyl
4.03 bore
4.0 stroke
6.123 rod length
C.r. 11.47
Ivc abdc 70°
Boost 0
Altitude 1000ft.
The results...effective stroke, 2.98", dynamic c.r. 8.8, dynamic cranking pressure 179.71 lbs.

I missed where he was running a 4" crank.
 
The thing is.... yes numbers alone can be very confusing, until you have a crank, cam, timing chain and degree wheel on the engine, and have made some actual measurements of deck height and cc of the heads.
 
The thing is.... yes numbers alone can be very confusing, until you have a crank, cam, timing chain and degree wheel on the engine, and have made some actual measurements of deck height and cc of the heads.

I feel like I’m in church right now. Great thread for folks like me trying to understand the complexities.
 
Op, do you actually have the cam in your possession? If so, then you would have received the cam card included in the box. Post a picture of that. It has the timing events listed.
 
Op, do you actually have the cam in your possession? If so, then you would have received the cam card included in the box. Post a picture of that. It has the timing events listed.
I do its back in its box. Ill get it out and post a pic of the card a little later
 
Did you see my quote? "If the dynamic is correct"


LOL...yep. We are saying the same thing. I’m not trusting his numbers at the moment. I don’t think you are either.

If his numbers are correct then he can run it on WD40 and it would work (obviously that is hyperbole but you get what I’m saying).
 
Okay, just for arguments sake, lets ignore the specific numbers. Does anyone here believe he can run a 11.4/11.8 to 1, no quench, iron head motor with a mild (i consider a 235 at .050 mild) cam, on pump 93?
I dont, not without some sort of sweetener, a touch of race gas or LL100.
 
I don't need a calculator to tell me what I know. It's going to rattle.
The only question is at what RPM.
 
What would you guys recommend I set my cam at? I'm planning on getting it assembled within the next few weekends so I'll get a better idea of specs
 
Unfortunately no
Those can be calculated off the known advertised numbers; you have everything you need right on that cam card.
But like the guys are saying, until you get a piston installed, we are all pissing in the wind. From Post #1. I thought the short was already together.

Here's how it works;
You can't get the Ica until you know the Actual number of compression degrees.
You can't know the compression degrees until you know when the intake closes. So it's a catch-22.
So the first thing you need to do is decide where to put your Installed centerline. Normally, the cam grinder tells you a number like; Plus 4* or 106*. We all are assuming your Scr is close to correct, so with this small for a stroker, cam, we know that installing it there at plus 4/106, will make too much cranking compression.
From your numbers it is possible to calculate the overlap, and divide it by 2 and round to the nearest whole degree, and thus know where split overlap is. From that, in my earlier post My decision was to allocate 36 of the 71* of overlap, to the intake cycle, and the leftover 35* to the exhaust. That thus designates the starting point of the intake duration.
Since a 4 stroke cycle has 720 degrees to accomplish the suck-squeeze-bang-blow; we add our 36* to one half of that, and get 396 degrees in which to accomplish intake and compression.
We know the intake duration is 288 of that, so
396 less 288= 108 degrees of compression. Compression ends at TDC so the start point has to be 108 degrees earlier, or a half a revolution/180, less 108=72 degrees, for the Ica.
There is your Ica at whatever advertised tappet-rise your grinder is calling out; which is usually .006 or .008, but occasionally is .001.
Since your roller ramps seem to be unusually long; 288 less 235=53*, Ima guessing his spec is .006; but the card does not say, and I'm just guessing, and it really doesn't matter.....
Because wherever the intake finally closes and stops leaking, it will be "bleeding Pressure " back up into the intake, being pushed along by the rising piston, at low to medium rpm, which in your case is a good thing because;
If your Scr really is 11.82,
yur gonna need to get rid of some of that, so that
you can give the engine a decent advance curve, so that
you can actually floor the beast.

BTW
using the same method, your power-extraction cycle comes to just 101degrees. You can expect this engine to suck gas big time around town no matter how hard you try make it better, and the fuel-economy on the hiway will be only mildly better, AND, an overdrive will be almost a complete waste of money;
because that is the nature of that cam operating at low rpm;
with hi-compression slamming just-inducted mixture back into the plenum, and
with only 101* (in my calculated case, worse at "plus 4") of extraction, AND
71* of overlap, during which the headers are tugging already mixed Fuel-Air charge out of the plenum and straight across the piston, and into the exhaust system, unburned.
But then, you didn't buy that cam for such a use, right? I mean the card says 2400 to 6300.................., so
I'm jus saying.
 
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Cam Card

20210410_203125.jpg
 
Those can be calculated off the known advertised numbers; you have everything you need right on that cam card.
But like the guys are saying, until you get a piston installed, we are all pissing in the wind. From Post #1. I thought the short was already together.

Here's how it works;
You can't get the Ica until you know the Actual number of compression degrees.
You can't know the compression degrees until you know when the intake closes. So it's a catch-22.
So the first thing you need to do is decide where to put your Installed centerline. Normally, the cam grinder tells you a number like; Plus 4* or 106*. We all are assuming your Scr is close to correct, so with this small for a stroker, cam, we know that installing it there at plus 4/106, will make too much cranking compression.
From your numbers it is possible to calculate the overlap, and divide it by 2 and round to the nearest whole degree, and thus know where split overlap is. From that, in my earlier post My decision was to allocate 36 of the 71* of overlap, to the intake cycle, and the leftover 35* to the exhaust. That thus designates the starting point of the intake duration.
Since a 4 stroke cycle has 720 degrees to accomplish the suck-squeeze-bang-blow; we add our 36* to one half of that, and get 396 degrees in which to accomplish intake and compression.
We know the intake duration is 288 of that, so
396 less 288= 108 degrees of compression. Compression ends at TDC so the start point has to be 108 degrees earlier, or a half a revolution/180, less 108=72 degrees, for the Ica.
There is your Ica at whatever advertised tappet-rise your grinder is calling out; which is usually .006 or .008, but occasionally is .001.
Since your roller ramps seem to be unusually long; 288 less 235=53*, Ima guessing his spec is .006; but the card does not say, and I'm just guessing, and it really doesn't matter.....
Because wherever the intake finally closes and stops leaking, it will be "bleeding Pressure " back up into the intake, being pushed along by the rising piston, at low to medium rpm, which in your case is a good thing because;
If your Scr really is 11.82,
yur gonna need to get rid of some of that, so that
you can give the engine a decent advance curve, so that
you can actually floor the beast.

BTW
using the same method, your power-extraction cycle comes to just 101degrees. You can expect this engine to suck gas big time around town no matter how hard you try make it better, and the fuel-economy on the hiway will be only mildly better, AND, an overdrive will be almost a complete waste of money;
because that is the nature of that cam operating at low rpm;
with hi-compression slamming just-inducted mixture back into the plenum, and
with only 101* (in my calculated case, worse at "plus 4") of extraction, AND
71* of overlap, during which the headers are tugging already mixed Fuel-Air charge out of the plenum and straight across the piston, and into the exhaust system, unburned.
But then, you didn't buy that cam for such a use, right? I mean the card says 2400 to 6300.................., so
I'm jus saying.
Hum, I wonder what the pressure is at RPM. do you think one can hear detonation.
using a camshaft to bleed compression is a band aid.
 
New numbers with the 43.3 IVC @ 50
this answers my question as to if I could run pump gas. I thought myself that the ~8:1 comp was weird. Thats why I posted this question. I do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out. Thats why I love this forum!!
20210410_203622.jpg
 
Okay, just for arguments sake, lets ignore the specific numbers. Does anyone here believe he can run a 11.4/11.8 to 1, no quench, iron head motor with a mild (i consider a 235 at .050 mild) cam, on pump 93?
I dont, not without some sort of sweetener, a touch of race gas or LL100.


It’s pretty hard to get that CR and not have quench but yes, it can be done. I doubt it wit that cam. It’s wrong for several reasons.
 
There are other factors that can cause detonation & really hard to say for sure when you get in the 'gray' area of comp ratio. Cold air induction staves off det, as does getting the engine running as cool as possible. Some might have noticed that with some engines that det at operating temp on a hot humid day, they do not do so on a cold winter's day.
 
using a camshaft to bleed compression is a band aid.
We know that
As I said we're jus pissing in the wind.
Iron heads and 189psi are not gonna play nice together.
Nor will a VP of over 160, be useful in a streeter.

But OP already owns the cam, so we can at least entertain the idea of using it.

It will work just fine at;
Ica of 72@2000ft
Static compression ratio of.................................. 11:1.
Effective stroke is 2.92 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.30:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is....................... 160.88 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r.,
cam timing, altitude, and boost of nil PSI is............ 7.90 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is ......................... 144

As I said the Wallace Dcr Calculator has now been corrected to spit out the same Dcr no matter the elevation, so you gotta look at the
>Effective boost compression ratio of 7.90
>161 psi may be a lil high for iron, but should work with pumpgas and a careful tune.
>VP of 144 is not as likely to be as hard on tires, but we can't do anything about that, with iron heads.
> less Scr will be more pumpgas friendly, but the VP is falling fast, so pretty soon it will need a hi-stall
> this combo at 11/1 will already want gears, to cruise at over 2400rpm
> This combo, as it stands, wants alloy heads to go with that 11.82Scr , OR a later-closing Ica for iron, OR a dedicated anti-detonant injection system. As YR and others have said or hinted at, getting 11.8Scr with no quench would be a serious challenge, so I think it's pretty safe to say that the 11.82 number is an error. 11.82 would require a total chamber volume of;
836/10.82=77.27cc, doable but .............
>I don't like this 288/294/110 cam for a street combo, because, altogether,
IMO,
for a streeter, it's hard to strike a happy tune.
But until we see the piston in the hole, we are all just flicking snot on the wall, OOps, I mean speculating.
 
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I'll try and get everything put together here soon. I'll cc the heads and valve reliefs. I do have head gaskets but if need be I can buy thinner/thicker whatever I need to help. Shitty thing with the cam is when I ordered it I was running the same combo of parts on a 360. I then decided since the motor was out to build a stroker. I had already ordered the cam to their recommendations and had to wait 3 months for it to get here. Pretty much I'm stuck with it now. I could of course order another but being its not a Chebby cam I'd probably have to wait another few months plus I'm at a tight spot with my budget
 
So I got my bottom end together and heres what I actually got
Piston out of the bore = .006"
Valve reliefs = 4CC
Combustion chamber = 67.4CC
Head gasket bore = 4.180
Headgasket compressed = .039"

Cam degreed in at 107° ICL
 
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I see absolutely nothing wrong with the grind of your cam. It actually looks like a pretty nice stick. It's just that you're trying to make iron heads work with the compression ratio that is just to high for s*** fuel there are some things that you can do to hopefully help stop the knock knock knock shitstorm at the door as others have mentioned but it seems far from ideal on pump gas. As far as installing your cam I think I would go straight up , advancing will only her further the problem and retarding well I'm not a fan but this may be a case where it may be appropriate. Just my two cents and now for the experts.
 
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the grind of your cam. It actually looks like a pretty nice stick. It's just that you're trying to make iron heads work with the compression ratio that is just to high for s*** fuel there are some things that you can do to hopefully help stop the knock knock knock shitstorm at the door as others have mentioned but it seems far from ideal on pump gas. As far as installing your cam I think I would go straight up , advancing will only her further the problem and retarding well I'm not a fan but this may be a case where it may be appropriate. Just my two cents and now for the experts.
Yea I kind of lost the idea of pump gas. I have been on the fence on E85. I may run race fuel for this year and maybe dabble in the E85 thing. Eventually I'd like to go aluminum heads just not at all in the budget as of now. Thanks for your input!
 
Well, I can now tell you from experience that sometimes these calculations can be deceiving. My new slant build for example. Static right on top of 10:1 and dynamic at 7.9. Pump gas friendly, right? Not right off the bat it wasn't. It took a little tuning and finesse, but not it runs great on everything I've put in it so far. Right now it happens to have a tank of super in it, but only because I had so many points on out grocery card, I got 50 cents off a gallon. lol But as of now, no more spark knock running anything.

All that said, I think you've made some errors still somewhere. I sure do wish somehow we could measure everything together and figure it out.
 
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