QFT Jetting?

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JJH

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Hey guys! Hope everything's going well for the holidays! I'd appreciate some tips on rejetting my 580 Quick Fuel carb. Carb is how it came out of the box, drove all last summer on it. I thought the truck ran good, but it is a new combo and I feel it could be made better. I pulled the heads a few days ago and am in the process of doing a little bowl and port work. They'll then have a valve job and then be milled 0.02. Truck's got an RVish cam, headers, stock 727 but will be treated with a new stall and TF2 shift kit while it's out. The plugs are black. Very BLACK. So are the tailpipes. Anyone got any pointers? Anyone know what jets are stock in the 580 hotrod series? I don't see the need in dishing out the money for a full jet set if I should only step it back a size or two.
 
Use the jetting for best high speed highway, and for wide open throttle unless you start messing with the power valve restrictions.
To adjust the mix at lower throttle openings, the 'idle circuit' is the circuit to adjust.
>Check the idle feed restriction size and location.
Relocating the Holley Idle Jet
> Measure the idle air bleeds
If you want help with it, Mike who posts as "Gntkllr" on RFS, is in your part of the world. Send me a PM and I'll get you in touch if you don't want to join that forum.
Some of his posts.
Alcohol carburetor/blocks return to gasoline use?...
Working on a 9834-3 mileage
LIST-7448 350 2-Barrel Curiosities
 
Use the jetting for best high speed highway, and for wide open throttle unless you start messing with the power valve restrictions.
To adjust the mix at lower throttle openings, the 'idle circuit' is the circuit to adjust.
>Check the idle feed restriction size and location.
Relocating the Holley Idle Jet
> Measure the idle air bleeds
If you want help with it, Mike who posts as "Gntkllr" on RFS, is in your part of the world. Send me a PM and I'll get you in touch if you don't want to join that forum.
Some of his posts.
Alcohol carburetor/blocks return to gasoline use?...
Working on a 9834-3 mileage
LIST-7448 350 2-Barrel Curiosities

If you don't mind, yes please! Truck won't be on the road to test until late spring, but any advice would be appreciated
 
I'll get you his info.

Looking at the spark plugs is always a good start. The only downside is that whatever your seeing is cumulative from different conditions from idle, cruising slow, highway, acceleration etc.

Other information that is very helpful to know is:
Fuel level in each bowl. On your carb, it will be around the center of the sight glass, but it may be a little higher or lower. Take note.
How far out each of the idle mix screws are from being seated. Count the turns in to the nearest 1/8 turn.
Timing at various rpm, starting with idle speed.
Observe how much black in the intake and on base of carb and throttle blades from reversion.

When you open the carb, see where the idle feed restriction is located and how many emulsion air bleeds there are. If you take a photo people can help you ID these things.

Fuel level can have some effect on air fuel mixture.
The idle mixture screws give some sense of what is going on in the rest of the circuit. There is no right or wrong amount as long as they are doing something.
Timing makes a big difference on how well the combustion develops.

Anything that effects manifold vacuum will effect the idle circuit. The higher the manifold vacuum, the stronger the pull on the idle circuit. Your RV cam may have strong idle characteristics and be pulling hard on circuit intended for a cam with moderately poor vacuum at idle. Four corner idle is most helpful for a cam with poor idle vacuum because it basically doubles the ports fuel is pulled from.
 
Tomorrow I can get you a few more details. What do you mean by opening the carb? Take the bowls off? And I had the floats set at just under half on primary and just over secondary. I did forget to mention the truck had a hesitation/stumble just as I am pressing on the gas, not even over 1000rpm. It was fine before and after. I think it is probably a lean spot, it's not like it's loaded up.

Plugs are black. Truck made one racy drive around my town after a total of 8 highway hours and was parked. 65+mph.

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Get the idle mix set right, too rich.

Jet the primary down till it surges at hwy cruise, then jet it back up 1-2 sizes...that should keep the plugs clean.
 
Idle screws were 4 1/8ths so 1/2 a turn out each. You can see, intake is nice and black

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Sorry I didnt see your replies until this morning. Mopar official covered 99% of it.
Idle screws were 4 1/8ths so 1/2 a turn out each. You can see, intake is nice and black

View attachment 1715265301

View attachment 1715265302
That's showing a lot of reversion. Additional timing should help.
What do you mean by opening the carb? Take the bowls off?
Bowls and metering blocks. The other side of the metering block will show how they calibrated the bleeds and restrictions.

And I had the floats set at just under half on primary and just over secondary.
OK. I might lower the secondaries depending on the rest of the details.
forget to mention the truck had a hesitation/stumble just as I am pressing on the gas, not even over 1000rpm. It was fine before and after. I think it is probably a lean spot, it's not like it's loaded up.
Since the plugs are showing rich, I'd first check the accelerator pump lever moves as soon as the throttle moves off idle.
If that's not it, then we can look further into the "idle circuit" adjustments.
 
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While we're at it, here's pictures of some of the other measurements that are useful to note:
Flip it over and measure the transfer slot showing with the throttles at idle.
End of drill bit is next to the transfer slot.
upload_2018-12-23_10-37-4.png

Secondary side may not show any slot. If so, that's fine. Leave it that way.

On the metering blocks, the restrictions of interest will be where the circles and arrows are in this photo.
upload_2018-12-23_10-46-24.png

Blue arrows are locations of the idle feed restriction (IFR).
Blue circle are the emulsion bleeds (e-bleeds). The restrictions are at the bottom of the hole.
Yellow is location of kill bleed or anti-siphon bleed. Not always used.
Orange is sometimes used for the same, but it shouldn't be.

While we're pointing out the various bleeds and restrictions.
Blue arrows point to the idle air bleeds
Pinkish arrows point to the main air bleeds, also called high speed air bleeds.
upload_2018-12-23_10-52-30.png
 
Okay. Thank you so much for the pictures! This is the first time I've ever took apart a carb. Do I need to measure these ports? If so, how?
Transition slot is exposed about 2mm on primary side. Secondary is open a little. All ports appear to be equal sizes on primary and secondary metering blocks

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Thank you so much for the pictures!
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Do I need to measure these ports? If so, how?
It's helpful to have a baseline. So the ones can, sure.
Smooth shank of a drill bit is the cheapest way. The real small sizes require a set of microbits which you can get from hobby shops and machine/industrial supplies. Don't sweat that for now. If you have open ended wire feeler gages, you can use them too.
Transition slot is exposed about 2mm on primary side.
That's 0.078" if my conversion is correct. Welcome to the world of mils and thousanths of an inch!
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Looking at the photo, it looks to be at least .060"
That opening is feeding fuel at idle. The amount above the throttle is bleeding air into the idle mix.
When the primary throttle blades are closed a little more, the idle won't be so rich. The transition off idle will probably also improve by going richer as you come off idle. That alone may be enough to eliminate the hesitation.
Turn the idle speed screw down and the count the turns open to reveal .020 and .040" of the transition slot. Write those numbers down. That's the typical operating range for a primary transition slot when everything is tuned in. Now you'll know how open they are without taking the carb off.

With the throttle blades further closed, the rpm will drop. Increase the timing advance to bring that up.
If you have no other reference, use the engine size and cam duration at .050 from this chart as guideline.
Distributor starting point for a curve
Secondary is open a little.
OK. If need be, that can be used for some fine tuning. I'd leave it for now. Lets assume the secondary opening is pretty close to what should be and therefore no point in messing with it unless really have to.

All ports appear to be equal sizes on primary and secondary metering blocks
On a 4 corner idle carb they may be similar.
The sizes on the bleeds are 73 and 31
OK. That's fairly typical sizes.
73 represents .073" hole for the primary idle air bleed
31 similarly represents a .031" hole on the primary main air bleed.
If the secondaries are the same, you got it.

The metering blocks have 3 air bleed locations. Unfortunately that's all too common these days and frequently makes inconsistant fuel delivery.
That said, I wouldn't sweat it right now. The bleeds can be removed with an allen key, so that's nice.

It looks like the idle fuel restrictions are located in the high position. Sometimes this causes inconsistant fueling with hot cams. Unfortunately very common on new carbs these days. I wouldn't sweat it right now. But that is the first mod I would make if it was on my bench.
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I'd say just try tuning the way it is.
One change at a time.
The change I would make is the primary throttle position and then adjust initial timing.
Make both adjustments with the engine warmed up, distributor vacuum advance disconnected and a golf tee or similar plugging the manifold vacuum.
 
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Thank you so much! I'll measure those this evening hopefully and get back to you. If there are any mods you think I should do, and can do without being able to test, I'm down for it lol. I forgot to mention earlier that thinking was advanced a little more but it would ping under strain at about 3400rpm, so we took a little out.
 
Oh, and the accelerator pump was moving as soon as the throttle started to move. I checked and as of the moment I don't have anything capable of measuring those bleeds. I doubt I'll find any info online either, as I'm sure most people that go this in depth are either running larger carbs or more expensive variations
 
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If there are any mods you think I should do, and can do without being able to test, I'm down for it lol.
Not based on the information so far. One step at a time when doing this type of tuning.
I checked and as of the moment I don't have anything capable of measuring those bleeds. I doubt I'll find any info online either, as I'm sure most people that go this in depth are either running larger carbs or more expensive variations
Its OK. The IFRs are probably between .028 and .035" and the e-holes are probably .028, but maybe just maybe they are .023 or smaller. Standard drill sets don't go that small. QF might tell you - they would have before the Holley takeover. If you do find a build sheet, thats good, just don't bet the farm on it being 100% correct. You could try searching over at Racing Fuel Systems forum. All sorts of stuff people discuss there. Unfortunately the interface is terrible since tapatalk took over the board and that includes the search function. :(
Oh, and the accelerator pump was moving as soon as the throttle started to move.
Great! It may need slight adjustment when the idle speed screw is reset.
I forgot to mention earlier that thinking was advanced a little more but it would ping under strain at about 3400rpm, so we took a little out.
Makes sense. Just that with your hot rodded engine, it will have to be addressed a little differently.
If pinged at part throttle, then the vacuum advance and/or advance rate can be adjusted to prevent that.
If it pinged at or near wide open throttle, then the advance rate needs to be slowed.
You wanted to do some modifications? This may be your opportunity.
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Timing works hand in glove with fuel mixture and combution.
The goal is to change the spark lead so the burn always results in maximum pressure to take advantage of maximum leverage on the crank.
The faster the engine spins, the more lead time is needed - until some rpm where the combustion starts burning faster and additional lead doesn't ahve toi keep being added.
The less dense the air fuel mixture, the slower the burn. Vacuum advance provides additional spark lead with lean mixtures
Nice illustration here: Ignition System Analysis (Session 259) from the Master Technician's Service Conference
What was the initial timing that you were using, and at what rpm?
What distributor are you using?


Back to carbs.
Chrysler has some decent overviews of how carburetors work. Although they are more oriented to the Carter designs, the concepts are pretty much universal.
Here's one from 1970 Carburetion Fundamentals & Facts (Session 273), Master Technician's Service Conference
and the filmstrip that went with it. 1970 Carburetion Fundamentals and Facts Filmstrip with Mr Tech
Although I like the 1966 version better since emissions aren't a concern for what you are doing.
1966 Carburetor Fundamentals from The Master Technician Service Conference Series (Session 222)
 
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Looks like i've got some reading material! And as for timing, can that be checked without engine running? I also don't have any gauges or indicators. I'm a Marine Engineering student and the family business was forestry, so I'm no stranger to mechanics, but I am probably the most familiar with gas engines in my family lol. I didn't even realize vacuum distributors could be tuned...... change in spring tension?
 
Very cool. You'll pick it up. :)
Vacuum gage and or mityvic with gage, timing light, and tachometer are all handy to have.
For checking timing much above idle, timing tape and a tach that reads above 1200 rpm is needed.
Black timing tape is easiest to read. White reflects too much.
And as for timing, can that be checked without engine running?
Not really. I assume you've already removed the distributor. I was just assuming when you reduced the timing, you or someone might have noted what it was.
I didn't even realize vacuum distributors could be tuned...... change in spring tension?
That's one adjustment available on most, but not all, vacuum advances.
The other is limiting the range of movement allowed.

The mechanical advance can be adjusted by changing the preload on the springs, or changing the springs themselves. The total movement can also be limited. Details vary with different types of distributors.
 
Distributor is still in motor, didn't see the point in taking it out. And no, I didn't initially time or take out timing. My father's friend did it while I was away
 
Well in theory its possible then to check the initial timing, but it will only be approximate.
Bring the #1 piston close to the top the compression stroke. The timing mark on the crank damper should be at about 15* before TDC.
Slowly bring it up until the distributor rotor is just under the #1 spark plug wire location. When it is. Look at the damper and see how much before TDC it is.
 
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