Quest to getting my Slant six to turn over

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Vamisk

Vamisk

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Alright to i have a recently purchased 225 1975 duster with a 727.

I put a new lead on the battery and tried to jump it. Amazingly the interior lights worked, the exterior lights worked but when trying to turn over all i got was a clank from the solenoid area.
I'm a complete nobody when it comes to electrical.
is there just not enough power going around to turn over the engine?
 
Vamisk said:
Alright to i have a recently purchased 225 1975 duster with a 727.

I put a new lead on the battery and tried to jump it. Amazingly the interior lights worked, the exterior lights worked but when trying to turn over all i got was a clank from the solenoid area.
I'm a complete nobody when it comes to electrical.
is there just not enough power going around to turn over the engine?
Click to expand...
I have not had to deal with this issue in years...I think maybe it is the starter if I recall...now days they build the solenoid with the starter...you should be able to test the starter by jumping a screwdriver across the two terminals on the solenoid.
 
If it's a strong clunk from the starter itself, the copper washer that connects the motor windings is not making good contact when the solenoid pulls in, or the brushes in the motor are bad, or the motor is somehow no longer a complete circuit.
Check both terminals ON the starter.
If either one wiggles, the starter needs to be changed because the contact won't make properly if it's not firmly connected.
If it's a "little" clunk, then the firewall starter solenoid relay is working, but the starter itself is not.
Depending on how long the car sat, could just be oxidized contacts.... have someone turn the key to start and hold it, then you
give the starter a good whack with a hammer and see if it tries.
 
Have you measured the battery voltage while trying to start? A weak battery will click or clunk solenoid, but not have enough power to turn over engine. If a battery drops low, to 10 or 11V, it needs a charge, or is bad. Do lights dim or go off when trying to crank?

Also have you tested rotation of engine by hand or wrench, key off of course, to make sure it is not stuck?
 
The battery is most certainly 100% toast but i figured that if it was being helped with a jump it would be able to do something. I forgot to mention it was just donor power from another car.
The lights don't dim when trying to crank but the lights themselves are in poor shape to begin with. Only the gear position on the steering column has enough light to be readable. Thank god the starter is actually reachable by hand, if it is bad i won't have to dissect the engine bay to reach it.

I suppose the first thing to do is actually spin the engine. I didn't even think of that one.
 
I had the same issue with my /6 a couple weeks ago. Starter would not spin even with a jump. I suspected the battery was bad so I got a ride home and borrowed the battery from my daily driver and substituted it for the one it in the Valiant. Bingo! Instant start.

You can easily remove your starter and take it to a big chain auto store where they will check it for free.

Or do what I've done before and put the starter on the ground and put 12 v to it with my foot holding it down. You will instantly know if the solenoid is eorking and the starter is spinning.
 
Alright guys, i spun the engine by hand, i got a fresh new walmart battery, i put it on and in my haste i accidentally sparked the starter solenoid. This was it, the cubs won the world series, my Duster was going to crank now! I opened the door and the dome lamp had a warm glow waiting for me, it had lights without taking power from a jump. I was ready. It was like 32 degrees so i knew it wasn't going to fire with a missing choke but just to have it crank would have been enough.

I put the key in, made sure it was in park, turned and..clunk went the solenoid again and nothing else.
At this point should i be considering a damaged starter/starter solenoid? Mine is still with the separate solenoid bolted to the frame. It doesn't have a ground wire coming out of it but i thought it would ground through the bolts.
I'd chase fuses around if i knew where to look but i want to get the big things out of the way first.
Does anyone have any tips for me? The fact that the lights are working is a victory to me but it would really satisfying to wake up the district judge at 2 in the morning with a straight piped /6. He hates us and we hate him.
 
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Just had a very similar problem.

BATTERY CABLES.

The cables on my car looked ok and clean enough at the terminals but as I cut the insulation back, it was blue/green corrosion for at least 8 inches from the battery terminal, to the core, all hidden by the insulation.

I Replaced the cables, wirrrr wirrrr vrooom.
 
Yeah my wires are disgusting all the way around. That may be an explanation as to why my lights are literally so dim as to make the dash unreadable without a mag-light. I guess now's the time to start learning how to wire things because i would have to do it soon anyway. Guess i'm also getting a new starter to go along with it.
 
If you get the heavy clunk but nothing spins, try a hundred times. Seriously. The contacts for the starter motor are not "making".
On the 53rd try, they might.
Be ready.
The heavy copper washer attached to the solenoid is either so disfigured by arcing or oxidation that it doesn't complete the circuit, or the starter windings are open, or the contacts have become loose in the phenolic resin and the contacts are no longer in the proper place that the moving solenoid isn't able to make a connection.
Is the heavy cable terminal on the starter tight, or wiggly?
 
Everything is solid and the solenoid looks like it was made yesterday. Tomorrow at some reasonable hour i'll have my dad tap on the starter with a hammer while i try to crank it and see what happens.
If it's still a no go then it'll be a new starter and new wires. I doubt the wires have much life in them anyway.
 
My advice is to get a FACTORY service manual for your car ASAP and use it to track down your problem.
Don't buy one of the cheap knock offs like Clymer or Haynes, get a genuine factory one.
You'll be using it lots in the future anyway, so it will be money well spent.
 
Hey guys, i jumped the starter and she started cranking. I guess it'll need a new one of those. It's nice to hear it moving but it still didn't start. Something about gas fumes near sparking starter posts.

Thanks guys!
 
I got my starter fixed and it still wouldn't crank.
I was going to ask what's up when i traced this particular wire all the way back to the gearbox.
So if this is indeed the NSS, how can I connect it to my relay? Obviously someone replaced the relay with some newer one. Not sure which post it should connect to.

WP_20161117_005.jpg
 
All Chrysler starters have an integral solenoid, since ~1960 and same PN for slant, small-block, big-block until the Magnum engines (1980's thru ~2002). Magnum V-8 use a smaller, lighter starter that fits early engines and works better, so get one if you change. That big contactor on the inner fender is not original, so a kludge. Perhaps it replaces the factory "starter relay" on the firewall. A standard Bosch 30A relay would work fine for that and what later Mopars use. Either way, the NSS should wire to coil- of the relay, shorting it to ground to enable the relay.
 
that is a ford style solenoid....so who knows what is going on with the wiring.

I would recommend keeping a fire extinguisher handy when fiddling with that
 
BillGrissom said:
All Chrysler starters have an integral solenoid, since ~1960 and same PN for slant, small-block, big-block until the Magnum engines (1980's thru ~2002). Magnum V-8 use a smaller, lighter starter that fits early engines and works better, so get one if you change. That big contactor on the inner fender is not original, so a kludge. Perhaps it replaces the factory "starter relay" on the firewall. A standard Bosch 30A relay would work fine for that and what later Mopars use. Either way, the NSS should wire to coil- of the relay, shorting it to ground to enable the relay.
Click to expand...
So wire it to the empty post? Sorry, i'm a caveman when it comes to electrical.

Rainy Day Auto said:
that is a ford style solenoid....so who knows what is going on with the wiring.

I would recommend keeping a fire extinguisher handy when fiddling with that
Click to expand...
Yeah this looks like some shoddy work like most of the "modifications" done to the car. Last thing i need is these gas fumes to ignite.
 
Vamisk said:
I got my starter fixed and it still wouldn't crank.
I was going to ask what's up when i traced this particular wire all the way back to the gearbox.
So if this is indeed the NSS, how can I connect it to my relay? Obviously someone replaced the relay with some newer one. Not sure which post it should connect to.

View attachment 1714990235
Click to expand...
The replacement terminal at the battery is a trouble spot. They do not clamp tight on the cables, and the strap that bolts down invites corrosion.
Your wiring is modified with added contactor, replacing the original start relay. It could be that setup never got it going.
 
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In looking at the contactor, I see one large stud un connected, that is likely a problem. To correctly wire that contactor, the small connection are the coil. one will be hooked to NSS, that is grounded when in park or N. The other goes to yellow wire from ignition switch. One big stud goes to battery, the other big stud to small solenoid stud on starter.
Also the large stud that goes to battery should also feed other car electrical functions. More pictures may help, to see how wiring gets to bulkhead connectors.
 
KitCarlson said:
In looking at the contactor, I see one large stud un connected, that is likely a problem. To correctly wire that contactor, the small connection are the coil. one will be hooked to NSS, that is grounded when in park or N. The other goes to yellow wire from ignition switch. One big stud goes to battery, the other big stud to small solenoid stud on starter.
Click to expand...
Oh okay i see what you're saying. I've been able to jump the starter and get the engine firing a couple of times (carburetor troubles next). It just won't crank from the key. Tomorrow i'm going to try to rewire this junk.
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear. That Ford type solenoid is way over-sized. All you need is a small "automotive relay" since the starter has an integral solenoid. Of course, you could go back to the factory starter relay if you want to keep it original and then you could follow the factory wiring diagram. The NSS must be in the relay circuit for safety, and it must be wired the negative side of the coil because it is just 1 wire that shorts to ground.

If using a Bosch relay, pins: 30 = 12 V supply (always hot), 87 = output to solenoid, 86 = coil+ from key switch (usually yellow), 85 = coil- to NSS on transmission. Sometimes 85 & 86 are switched. Look for a diode symbol to tell if one must be negative.
 
Since it is used in intermittent application, plenty of room, and free, size does not matter, unless going to be a show car.
 
Just an update, it really was the NSS the whole time. I followed your instructions KitCarlson and it turned over by the key. Man what a relief.
 
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