Rear quarter body help needed

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I've bonded straight fiberglass panels to a 69 GTO in1985 and I screwed it and I actually welded the screws to the metal where i could from the inside. Before resin applied.

Trust me. Any welds is better than none. Period.
 
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As far as the butt vs lap debate goes, I'll say the real skill is knowing what to do, where, and when. I'm not a great body guy, but I do consider myself a pretty damn good welder.

I would think that the guys debating this understand the concept fairly well. Distribution of heat, managing panel growth through proper gapping, ect. We all hold ourselves to different standards. I can guarantee you that George can butt weld better than 99% of the internet experts, even though he says he's not perfect. He's a pro and most hobbyists would be proud to pull off his worst work. That said, I'm pretty damn good and any weld is gonna require at least a skin after finishing.

The real skill is knowing what to do long before the welder gets plugged in. Where to cut the panel, what shape, how you fit your pieces, what type of weld, ect. Long flats and long lazy convex panels are always to be avoided if possible (laps work well here). Tight convex panels(think back pillar on a pickup cab) are easy. Because of the shape it's pretty hard to warp the metal. Concave areas are preferred areas. You can play lots of games in the valleys.

Back to the original post. These guys are being gentlemen not throwing that guy under the bus...but I will. Don't let that guy touch your car if he does come back. He was given an absolute softball lobbed over the plate. With the options he had available on that repair not one single decision he made could even be remotely defendable. I know it's not what you want to hear, but that has to get cut off and start over. You can butt weld it, lap it, whatever you want...but that hokey *** "repair" will fail.
 
Sharing a personal thought, but sometimes a guy just wants his car back together, proper or not, so he can enjoy the feel of it on the road.
 
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adamm said:
Sharing a personal thought, but sometimes a guy just wants his car back together, proper or not, so he can enjoy the feel of it on the road.
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I get that, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend hours blocking filler, primers, prepping and painting over that and the $$$ associated with the materials. A long afternoon could have the panel out, glue cleaned up, refitted ,welded, and ready for filler. Back where he started but in a little better place. Easier to take care of it now instead of a week after the car is painted and hits the road and you notice the gel-coat like stress cracks.
 
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GeorgeH said:
One of the things most of us fussing could probably agree on is that if left unwelded the exposed edge seam that runs down the side of the car will crack the filler over it sooner rather than later. Some extra time now will save some headaches later. It might last a year or it might only last until the car gets flexed.
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And that is exactly why you don't put the weld on the backside of the flange (and on the inside of the quarter) like someone else suggested. Because that leaves the un-welded edge of the flange seam under the bondo on the outside of the quarter to crack and absorb moisture, while the smooth inside hides that method of repair so the next guy doesn't know he's sitting on a time bomb.

GeorgeH said:
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I get that, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend hours blocking filler, primers, prepping and painting over that and the $$$ associated with the materials. A long afternoon could have the panel out, glue cleaned up, refitted ,welded, and ready for filler. Back where he started but in a little better place. Easier to take care of it now instead of a week after the car is painted and hits the road and you notice the gel-coat like stress cracks
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Exactly, even with as much work as it will be now it will still be easier than waiting. Paint it now, and later if you ignore those stress cracks when they pop up (and they will) rust will start to form in the seams where the adhesive was burned off by those spot welds. It's not going to get easier to deal with, just harder.
 
72bluNblu said:
And that is exactly why you don't put the weld on the backside of the flange (and on the inside of the quarter) like someone else suggested. Because that leaves the un-welded edge of the flange seam under the bondo on the outside of the quarter to crack and absorb moisture, while the smooth inside hides that method of repair so the next guy doesn't know he's sitting on a time bomb.
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Leaving a glued un-welded seam and covering it with mud is drastically different from doing a flanged weld the proper way... I'm guessing that since you don't know how to actually do it correctly is why you are so put off by it. "Surface prepping" your butt weld is exactly what you described as hiding a "poor repair" don't split hairs. You'll grind the butt weld on the inside and the outside regardless of how absolutely perfect you are at butt welds. If you "lightly sand" or grind the butt weld you're hiding the repair for a reason... must be a **** repair right? Nobody suggested flanging a panel and then just slapping mud on it. There are proper ways to finish both repairs and not everyone does it with the intention of "hiding" a repair good, bad or magically perfect. Some people that finish a repair have high integrity and take pride in how the entire repair looks.... If I was a customer and had someone butt weld something and just leave it unfinished on the inside because they wanted to be absolutely "honest" with their repair I'd seriously question their abilities to do the repair in the first place. Imagine going to a car show and asking the top builder why he left his butt weld joints un-finished in the trunk and he puffs his chest out and says "I just didn't want to hide the fact that we put quarters on a 50 year old car" LOL

I'm also certain that with plug welds we all use resistance spot welding like at the factory... and if we can't we plug weld and "lightly buff" them as to not give away the fact that we plug welded instead of the OEM recommended resistance welders right......? Wouldn't want to give away the fact that we put a floor in a car and didn't have the right resistance welder to get the floor spotted to the rails would we....

I'm not even going to touch structural components vs sheet metal and sleeving....
 
67Dart440GT said:
Leaving a glued un-welded seam and covering it with mud is drastically different from doing a flanged weld the proper way... I'm guessing that since you don't know how to actually do it correctly is why you are so put off by it. "Surface prepping" your butt weld is exactly what you described as hiding a "poor repair" don't split hairs. You'll grind the butt weld on the inside and the outside regardless of how absolutely perfect you are at butt welds. If you "lightly sand" or grind the butt weld you're hiding the repair for a reason... must be a **** repair right? Nobody suggested flanging a panel and then just slapping mud on it. There are proper ways to finish both repairs and not everyone does it with the intention of "hiding" a repair good, bad or magically perfect. Some people that finish a repair have high integrity and take pride in how the entire repair looks.... If I was a customer and had someone butt weld something and just leave it unfinished on the inside because they wanted to be absolutely "honest" with their repair I'd seriously question their abilities to do the repair in the first place. Imagine going to a car show and asking the top builder why he left his butt weld joints un-finished in the trunk and he puffs his chest out and says "I just didn't want to hide the fact that we put quarters on a 50 year old car" LOL

I'm also certain that with plug welds we all use resistance spot welding like at the factory... and if we can't we plug weld and "lightly buff" them as to not give away the fact that we plug welded instead of the OEM recommended resistance welders right......? Wouldn't want to give away the fact that we put a floor in a car and didn't have the right resistance welder to get the floor spotted to the rails would we....

I'm not even going to touch structural components vs sheet metal and sleeving....
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I'm going to make this as simple as I can, since you can't seem to follow.

When you butt weld two panels together, you have two pieces of metal joined by a rounded weld on the outside. If you've done a really good job, the weld on the backside of that joint is almost flat. That's obviously not the end of the repair, there's a raised weld and this is bodywork on sheetmetal not an I-beam. The weld is then ground flat on the outside, leaving a joint that is the same thickness as the original metal. If you only did an ok job with the weld, there's some high/low spots left on the back. The low spots need to be re-welded because they're too thin, the high spots can be ground flat. And when you're done with the repair, the end result is a metal panel that has a metal joint that's the same thickness as the original metal. There is literally nothing to see when the repair is complete. That's not hiding anything, that's completing the repair where the end goal is a piece of metal with uniform thickness. That’s why for a restoration you do panel replacements with butt welds if you have to do a partial panel.

If you do a flange weld, there is a flanged seam where there was not originally a flanged seam. It doesn't matter if you're the worlds greatest welder and metal worker, if that’s the method you use when the repair is complete there is a flanged seam where the two panels are joined that's twice as thick as the original metal was. The original metal and the new panel are overlapped. That's fine, it's just a product of that method of repair. And that’s the difference- when the metalwork is done on the outside and everything is sealed up, there is still a flange on the backside. The bodywork is done, the flange is sealed, the repair is complete. No matter how good of a job you did, there is a double thickness flanged seam left over. If you then bondo over that flange to make it look like the panel wasn't repaired, or was repaired correctly with a butt weld, you're hiding your method of repair. There’s still a flange under that falsework, no matter how well you hide it. If you didn’t want there to be a flange because you didn’t want someone to see it, you should have chosen a method of repair that doesn’t leave one. Like a butt weld, or a full panel replacement.

And I leave my MIG welds alone. So yeah, you can see them on the backside of the full panels I replace. Heck you can see them on both sides of the floor panels I’ve done because I don't go over the top of the plug welds I did with a MIG to flatten them out. Because I don't care if someone knows I did it with a MIG. And if I ran a shop repairing cars with spot welds for my livelihood, you had better damn believe I’d have an induction welder to do those repairs.

Go ahead and hit disagree again, doesn’t hurt my feelings. I started doing bodywork as a teenager over 20 years ago. I’ve seen plenty of BS, I’ve done some BS before I knew better, and along the way I picked up some skills that not everybody has. I’m no great metalworker, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know what’s right. And slapping bondo in the inside of a panel to hide a flange is BS, no matter how good the flange job was.
 
[QUOTE="72bluNblu, post: 1972037220, member: 8182"

And I leave my MIG welds alone. So yeah, you can see them on the backside of the full panels I replace. Heck you can see them on both sides of the floor panels I’ve done because I don't go over the top of the plug welds I did with a MIG to flatten them out. Because I don't care if someone knows I did it with a MIG. And if I ran a shop repairing cars with spot welds for my livelihood, you had better damn believe I’d have an induction welder to do those repairs.
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Bush league butchery at it's finest.
 
Looks like you have some good ideas, so just a quick way to sand mud when you get to that point
I start when sanding the first few coats with a hand block and 36 grit after I apply the mud I wait till the mud is still a little soft not to the point of it gumming up your sand paper but it will cut the sand time in half and save on sore arms. just a thought.
 
67Dart440GT said:
Bush league butchery at it's finest.
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From a guy that fakes the way he actually does his repairs, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you sir, you just made my day. :thumbsup: Punch up another red X while you're at it! :D

If you have to go back over your work to fake your method of repair so it looks like another method of repair, you're a dishonest hack. Doesn't matter if you've been doing that way for a hundred years, it's still a scam.

If you need the finished work to look a certain way, you use the method of repair that results in that look. Plain and simple. Need your spot welds to look like they were done with an induction welder? Use an induction welder! How hard is that? Don't spend twice as much time faking your MIG welds to look like they were done with an induction welder. No amount of trickery and BS will change the fact you actually did them with a MIG, regardless of how good you are at faking the way that they look. If it's that important that they look right, do the work right. Don't take a shortcut and then lie about it.

Need there to not be a seam on the backside of a panel? Use a butt weld to joint the panels, don't slap bondo on the inside of a panel to hide the fact you didn't do it that way. If it's that important that it looks right, you're getting paid to do it right, so do it right. Don't take the easy way out then fake it to fool the guy paying your bills.

That kind of crap is why this thread exists, because a so-called bodyman took the easy way out, still screwed it up, and left the OP with mess to clean up.
 
72bluNblu said:
From a guy that fakes the way he actually does his repairs, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you sir, you just made my day. :thumbsup: Punch up another red X while you're at it! :D

If you have to go back over your work to fake your method of repair so it looks like another method of repair, you're a dishonest hack. Doesn't matter if you've been doing that way for a hundred years, it's still a scam.

If you need the finished work to look a certain way, you use the method of repair that results in that look. Plain and simple. Need your spot welds to look like they were done with an induction welder? Use an induction welder! How hard is that? Don't spend twice as much time faking your MIG welds to look like they were done with an induction welder. No amount of trickery and BS will change the fact you actually did them with a MIG, regardless of how good you are at faking the way that they look. If it's that important that they look right, do the work right. Don't take a shortcut and then lie about it.

Need there to not be a seam on the backside of a panel? Use a butt weld to joint the panels, don't slap bondo on the inside of a panel to hide the fact you didn't do it that way. If it's that important that it looks right, you're getting paid to do it right, so do it right. Don't take the easy way out then fake it to fool the guy paying your bills.

That kind of crap is why this thread exists, because a so-called bodyman took the easy way out, still screwed it up, and left the OP with mess to clean up.
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Don't you find it just a bit ironic that you have absolutely no problem covering chicken **** butt welds on the exterior of a panel with body filler but the inside of a panel is sacred holy ground of integrity?? It's laughable to be honest. Why take all the extra time to butt weld the panels but then I leave the welds for everyone to see so I can call myself an honest Abe? Lol wtf is that about? Do you even understand the process of restoring a car? When you build an engine I'm sure you leave it all greasy so people know it's old? Why paint a car then? That's lying because its not original? Leave a few waves in your body work so people know it was done by an amateur?? The way you described doing a lap weld completely clears any doubt you have absolutely no idea how to do one! I'm sorry you don't posses the skill set to do top notch restoration work but maybe in another twenty years you'll get there?

Have yourself a Happy Easter!
 
I think the best way to replace a patch panel is up to the guy doing the work, I have my ideas and the next guy might have another idea. Some may last longer than others but the finished job stands at you feel you did the best job you could.
I,m restoring a 1972 ford pick up for a guy that only wants the out side sheet metal to be nice he could care less about the back side, yea I told him what was gonna happen down the road but he did not care he could afford the nice paint job and couldn't afford to do it right. He told me he was not long for this world and wanted to enjoy his pick up for as long as he was alive.
I'm working extra hard to get his pick up done as soon as possible.
 
Fred Scigliano said:
I think the best way to replace a patch panel is up to the guy doing the work, I have my ideas and the next guy might have another idea. Some may last longer than others but the finished job stands at you feel you did the best job you could.
I,m restoring a 1972 ford pick up for a guy that only wants the out side sheet metal to be nice he could care less about the back side, yea I told him what was gonna happen down the road but he did not care he could afford the nice paint job and couldn't afford to do it right. He told me he was not long for this world and wanted to enjoy his pick up for as long as he was alive.
I'm working extra hard to get his pick up done as soon as possible.
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And I plan on trying to seal the rusty back side to make it last a little longer. not gonna make a lot of money on this truck but I know I'll feel good about what I did.
 
How could there be any argument about welding a panel on that's twice as strong as the factory does?
 
This why we have problems with guys doing it this way. I've been round and round with the Fusor clowns they send into the bodyshop as reps when the stuff fails. Their warranty doesn't even include a free tube of glue. The first thing they ask for is a batch number. When you don't have that, they tell you that you used stale dated product or application error and walk out. No Oem dealer bodyshop I've worked for recommends a repair like this. When you talk to a rep in the shop they say to spread glue on both the body and the panel and brush it out to cover all exposed bare metal. They don't even do that in their own demo. Rediculous. You know what's going to happen in those seams in 6 months time, and the panel will be separating. They wouldn't warranty the repair their own guy did when they see corrosion. LOL

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GeorgeH said:
This why we have problems with guys doing it this way. I've been round and round with the Fusor clowns they send into the bodyshop as reps when the stuff fails. Their warranty doesn't even include a free tube of glue. The first thing they ask for is a batch number. When you don't have that, they tell you you used stale dated product or application error and walk out. No Oem dealer bodyshop I've worked for recommends a repair like this. When you talk to a rep in the shop they say to spread glue on both the body and the panel and brush it out to cover all exposed bare metal. They don't even do that in their own demo. Rediculous. You know what's going to happen in those seams in 6 months time, and the panel will be separating. They wouldn't warranty the repair their own guy did when they see corrosion. LOL

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Yea I agree with you GeorgeH I live in farm country and if you glue a box side on a pick up the farmer will find a way to tear it off even if you weld the corners and I put on a lot of box sides more than 2 or 3 times on the same truck. never had a problem with welding it on
 
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If you have to go back over your work to fake your method of repair so it looks like another method of repair, you're a dishonest hack. Doesn't matter if you've been doing
If you need the finished work to look a certain way, you use the method of repair that results in that look. Plain and simple. Need your spot welds to look like they were done with an induction welder? Use an induction welder! How hard is that? Don't spend twice as much time faking your MIG welds to look like they were done with an induction welder. No amount of trickery and BS will change the fact you actually did them with a MIG, regardless of how good you are at faking the way that they look. If it's that important that they look right, do the work right. Don't take a shortcut and then lie about it.


The problem with this philosophy is that some areas will be inaccessible for a squeeze type resistance spot welder. Some alternate method (MIG, TIG) will have to be used. If duplicating the factory look is desired, some amount of "fakery" will be required.
 
Fred Scigliano said:
Yea I agree with you GeorgeH I live in farm country and if you glue a box side on a pick up the farmer will find a way to tear it off even if you weld the corners and I put on a lot of box sides more than 2 or 3 times on the same truck. never had a problem with welding it on
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Even with a full frame vehicle the body adds rigidity against torsional twisting. The last glue job I fixed was a Suburban that had a roof put on at another shop for hail damage and it was leaking water. The front edge of the roof was partially separated under the urethane set windshield and I found a few places down the sides where an epoxy type seam sealer had cracked. I'm not really sold on the epoxy seam sealers either. They're fast to cure and you can paint over them in no time, but seem a bit brittle to me. I've had to re-do a few bedsides where I had done the job. When the stuff first came out everybody used the glue and then the comebacks start coming including ones that have been hit a second time after being glued together. The 4 tacks or plugs on the corners they recommend just isn't enough.

It's what's not in the video I posted that scares me most about they way they did it. Also in the directions Blu posted directly from 3M where you glue the leading edge of the quarter to the inner structure in the door jamb. The quarter helps support the striker along with a small reinforcement that sometimes comes with a new quarter. Yup, just glue it all together and it's good by the manufacture's directions. Glue is one of those things I get pretty adamant about like Blu with his repairs "What about f'in next guy?" Because the next guy might be on the way to Dairy Queen with his kids in the back seat when he gets nailed and the door becomes un-closed. A Pro-Spot machine is the only one I've used that can generate enough amps and clamping pressure to pull off the weld/bond method. The stuff sounds great on paper but it just doesn't really work like they claim, it's widely misused and really causes some serious safety concerns. I would bet that when you pulled those loose bedsides off there was plenty of corrosion in the seams already.
 
Do you know what kind of machine it takes to do a proper ERW weld? Those 220v Lenco's and hand held tong welders don't provide enough clamping pressure or have enough *** to barely get 2 pieces of 18g stuck together never mind welding in a heavier gauge rocker where there's 2 or 3 layers involved. You going to have 460v service installed and buy a $15k resistance welder so you can do a factory correct looking repair because anything else would be a bullshit repair or you going to use the Mig you have and dress the welds because maybe you had a little trouble pulling off a perfect weld laying on your back welding upside down?
 
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