rear sway bar recommendations

[Mattax]

Since we're talkin' Chebby.
This was my '74 and it had sway bar links.

trivia tidbit: Did you know that upgrading to polyurethane bushings without upgrading the hardware can result in the tube punching through the washers?

 

[72bluNblu]

Since we're talkin' Chebby.
This was my '74 and it had sway bar links.
View attachment 1716472480

Nice!

I started AutoX in a different make/model as well. 16 year old me giving the beans to my '56 Austin Healey 100 at my first autoX.

trivia tidbit: Did you know that upgrading to polyurethane bushings without upgrading the hardware can result in the tube punching through the washers?

Whaaaaat?!

You can't just slap them in and expect everything to work the same as it did with a rubber bushing? You have to upgrade the whole system? Blasphemy!

 

[RustyRatRod]

Since we're talkin' Chebby.
This was my '74 and it had sway bar links.
View attachment 1716472480
trivia tidbit: Did you know that upgrading to polyurethane bushings without upgrading the hardware can result in the tube punching through the washers?

Well that's different. We were talking about coil spring rear GM stuff when we were sayin they had no end links in the rear.

 

[Mattax]

Well that's different. We were talking about coil spring rear GM stuff when we were sayin they had no end links in the rear.

Coil spring front with front sway bar, leaf rear no rear bar. Mighty power of the 250 cid 6 cylinder. Big bumper and last year for points and no cats. When thats all ya got ya make the best of it!

PS. That replaced the valiant with helper leafs I put into the curb on an expressway off-on ramp.

 

[Mattax]

Nice!

I started AutoX in a different make/model as well. 16 year old me giving the beans to my '56 Austin Healey 100 at my first autoX.
View attachment 1716472493



Whaaaaat?!

You can't just slap them in and expect everything to work the same as it did with a rubber bushing? You have to upgrade the whole system? Blasphemy!

Sweeeet!

I still think that stuff is cool.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Coil spring front with front sway bar, leaf rear. Mighty power of the 250 cid 6 cylinder. Big bumper and last year for points and no cats. When thats all ya got ya make the best of it!

PS. That replaced the valiant with helper leafs I put into the curb on an expressway off-on ramp.

Those cars got exceedingly fugly in 1973. I had a 73, 69 and 70. The 68-72 is my favorite. Those cars can be made to MOVE with a mild big block.

 

[72dustervs]

Ordered the shocks , thanks for all the replys , will wait till Feb . or whenever the Hellwig rear bar is available as it seems out of stock everywhere , unless someone knows a good vendor , but so far there out , not replacing front right away , will wait till a future date on that , but the shocks will be a nice upgrade

 

[mbaird]

One of my favorite photos illustrating oversteer.
Both cars were limited to factory suspension (class rules), but the rear tires of 23 are nearly flat resulting in the oversteer seen. In autocross, understeer is often driver induced (turning too late, entering too hard, etc.)
View attachment 1716472451

While all that may be true spirited street driving is a long way from autocross or road racing. I know some will chime in saying they drive like that on the street but I don’t. I live in the mountains and I just want a predictable good handling car that holds the road . Driving to the limit on the street is just plain stupid. And I have been accused of being pretty stupid but not that stupid . Same goes for the guys that say they use all 500+ hp on the street . Just too many things to go wrong! And I own a 500+ HP 340 4sp Swinger . No way I am flooring it unless Im on a straight wide road with no one around.

Man I would loved to do some autocross or road racing ! I listen to Talbot Turn Fast podcast …. He really has a great interview style .

 

[72bluNblu]

While all that may be true spirited street driving is a long way from autocross or road racing. I know some will chime in saying they drive like that on the street but I don’t. I live in the mountains and I just want a predictable good handling car that holds the road . Driving to the limit on the street is just plain stupid. And I have been accused of being pretty stupid but not that stupid . Same goes for the guys that say they use all 500+ hp on the street . Just too many things to go wrong! And I own a 500+ HP 340 4sp Swinger . No way I am flooring it unless Im on a straight wide road with no one around.

Man I would loved to do some autocross or road racing ! I listen to Talbot Turn Fast podcast …. He really has a great interview style .

While that's true, having a balanced car is a good thing even on the street. If you want a "predictable good handling car" then you need to tune it to the point that you know when/if it will under or oversteer. If you swerve hard to avoid a hazard you can easily end up understeering if you aren't familiar with how your car is set up and what it's capable of. Most folks have no idea what their car will do in those situations, and that does not make for a predictable response.

 

[mbaird]

Nice!

I started AutoX in a different make/model as well. 16 year old me giving the beans to my '56 Austin Healey 100 at my first autoX.
View attachment 1716472493



Whaaaaat?!

You can't just slap them in and expect everything to work the same as it did with a rubber bushing? You have to upgrade the whole system? Blasphemy!

That Austin looks like a blast to drive !
I sold high end cars for 25 years …. BMW , Porsche, Mercedes,Jag , Acura and Audi.
( 2 different dealers ) and the manufacturers would put on “Ride and drives”…. They would have their newest models and the competition there to drive . Some events were in parking lots others on tracks . Ripping around a track in 911 Turbos , BMW M-Series , AMG Mercedes and Acura NSX’s was pretty cool ! They would always have professional drivers at these events . One time in Pheonix AZ I had een driving all morning with a pro and when we broke for lunch he shook my hand and said “see you after lunch” … I looked at his name badge and realized I had been driving around a track with Roberto Guerrero ! It took me a second to process his name and by that time he had walked away . At lunch I went over to apologize for not paying attention to who he was . He said no problem… BTW this is Davey Jones” !

Man those guys can cut a lap time SO much faster than the average guy and look slow doing it !
I also spent a week at the old AMC proving grounds in Wisconsin with Audi . The Germans know how to put on an event ! No expense spared .

Acura sent me to the Honda proving grounds in Ohio to drive NSX twin turbos and 911 Turbos for 3 days . It paid off for Acura as I sold 5 NSX’s at $230k a pop . Not bad for a little dealer in Boise Id .

Anyways I just thought you autocrossers would get a kick out of those stories .

 

[mbaird]

While that's true, having a balanced car is a good thing even on the street. If you want a "predictable good handling car" then you need to tune it to the point that you know when/if it will under or oversteer. If you swerve hard to avoid a hazard you can easily end up understeering if you aren't familiar with how your car is set up and what it's capable of. Most folks have no idea what their car will do in those situations, and that does not make for a predictable response.

Much like a 911…. If you are not familiar with how to drive a rear engine car you can total one quickly. A technician in Bend Or put a customers 911 GT2 into the jersey barrier on a post service drive . Not an easily replaceable car !

 

[junkyardhero]

this is my fetish.

 

[Mattax]

While all that may be true spirited street driving is a long way from autocross or road racing. I know some will chime in saying they drive like that on the street but I don’t. I live in the mountains and I just want a predictable good handling car that holds the road . Driving to the limit on the street is just plain stupid. And I have been accused of being pretty stupid but not that stupid . Same goes for the guys that say they use all 500+ hp on the street . Just too many things to go wrong! And I own a 500+ HP 340 4sp Swinger . No way I am flooring it unless Im on a straight wide road with no one around.

Man I would loved to do some autocross or road racing ! I listen to Talbot Turn Fast podcast …. He really has a great interview style .

I agree that street driving is not like autocross which is not like a road course.
My point was to illustrate oversteer - in the case of the photo still controllable with heroic effort.

My point about putting off the rear sway bar until establishing it is needed is just applicable to street as it is a road course. Oversteer can be induced on the street without the driver adding throttle. That's just one way to push a vehicle over the limit of traction for the rear tires. Higher speeds, downhill curves, slightly less traction (wet surfaces) or something that upsets the car just the right (or wrong) way. Autoxcuda has posted video from his experience at Willow Springs of the last.

 

[Mattax]

While that's true, having a balanced car is a good thing even on the street. If you want a "predictable good handling car" then you need to tune it to the point that you know when/if it will under or oversteer. If you swerve hard to avoid a hazard you can easily end up understeering if you aren't familiar with how your car is set up and what it's capable of. Most folks have no idea what their car will do in those situations, and that does not make for a predictable response.

Amen. You explained it better than I did.

 

[Mattax]

View attachment 1716472616

this is my fetish.

You masoccist!

But you'll be in France, so there will be French women.

 

[mbaird]

I agree that street driving is not like autocross which is not like a road course.
My point was to illustrate oversteer - in the case of the photo still controllable with heroic effort.

My point about putting off the rear sway bar until establishing it is needed is just applicable to street as it is a road course. Oversteer can be induced on the street without the driver adding throttle. That's just one way to push a vehicle over the limit of traction for the rear tires. Higher speeds, downhill curves, slightly less traction (wet surfaces) or something that upsets the car just the right (or wrong) way. Autoxcuda has posted video from his experience at Willow Springs of the last.

I understood. I have followed many of your posts and believe you to know your stuff on chassis setups.

 

[junkyardhero]

You masoccist!

But you'll be in France, so there will be French women.

i mean...

but for reals... this is what's up:

 

[Mattax]

Much like a 911…. If you are not familiar with how to drive a rear engine car you can total one quickly. A technician in Bend Or put a customers 911 GT2 into the jersey barrier on a post service drive . Not an easily replaceable car !

That was me when autocrossing someone elses Porsche. I went fast but no way was pushing it as hard as my co-driver. I had no idea how it would act when it was about to go, and then would I be able to react correctly and quick enough. Even autocrossing sometimes its not worth trying to find the limit!

 

[Oldmanmopar]

EVERY stock torsion bar is way behind the rates that new cars have today.
If you drive any late model car, you'll find they all ride firmer than a stock A body. We have become used to the firmer ride and better cornering ability.
Anyone that runs a torsion bar less than .92 is shortchanging themselves if they want their car to corner well.



These are the kinds of words expected from a guy that yells at clouds..

View attachment 1716471775

"Plays hell on the unibody" ??
Tell that to Rick Ehrenberg and Andy Finkbeiner. They had highly competitive Valiants with oversize torsion bars, sway bars and other improvements. How about the FABO members that recently posted their black Dusters performing impressive autocross times?
Those cars didn't rattle apart. The erroneous belief that stiff torsion bars will rattle the fillings out of your teeth is crap. I have 1.03s in a 67 Dart that rides fine. I have 1.15s in a '70 Charger that rides like a late model Challenger. You either have no experience with big torsion bars (Only repeating what you have read from others) or you had crappy shocks with big torsion bars.
Just like a guy that builds an engine with mismatched components, suspension is the same way. You can't expect a car to handle well if all you do is change shocks...or add a huge sway bar....or large torsion bars. It all has to work together.

And your telling all of us that they competed on a race coarse with a factory body and No stiffeners. No cage, No frame ties, No unibody support. at all. I couldn't tell you how many Hard tops that I cracked the quarters on top behind the doors . You state I yell at the clouds. At least I am not next to you in the clouds. These unibody cars fold up like a tin box . There is nothing to them.

 

[Kern Dog]

First off, I don’t start sentences with the word AND.
Secondly, you somehow took my words and made a mountain out of a mole hill. I never wrote that the people that I mentioned did or did not have frame reinforcements. This seems to be a common habit of some people here, you take a kernel of info and extrapolate it to fit some argument that you wish to have.
My original point was that these cars can benefit from stiffer spring rates but as I have stated before, a solid platform from which to work allows the springs to work better. If you have huge torsion bars and stiff leaf springs on a stock unibody, before you ever reach the limits of the springs, the chassis has flexed. Some call this condition lost motion.
It has probably been proven that with a reinforced unibody, you can use lower spring rates since they will be working against a solid foundation.

 

[mbaird]

That was me when autocrossing someone elses Porsche. I went fast but no way was pushing it as hard as my co-driver. I had no idea how it would act when it was about to go, and then would I be able to react correctly and quick enough. Even autocrossing sometimes its not worth trying to find the limit!

Yep… never chop the throttle when it starts getting loose .

 

[junkyardhero]

First off, I don’t start sentences with the word AND.
Secondly, you somehow took my words and made a mountain out of a mole hill. I never wrote that the people that I mentioned did or did not have frame reinforcements. This seems to be a common habit of some people here, you take a kernel of info and extrapolate it to fit some argument that you wish to have.
My original point was that these cars can benefit from stiffer spring rates but as I have stated before, a solid platform from which to work allows the springs to work better. If you have huge torsion bars and stiff leaf springs on a stock unibody, before you ever reach the limits of the springs, the chassis has flexed. Some call this condition lost motion.
It has probably been proven that with a reinforced unibody, you can use lower spring rates since they will be working against a solid foundation.

you're wasting your breath on that clown shoes MF'er. all he does is twist stuff up to fit his narrative and talk about "how long" he's been doing it. when confronted with facts he flips out and throws a tantrum. not worth your time to even attempt a civil conversation, let alone explain the subtle nuances of suspension that actually handles and how that all works. you've got better things to do.

 

[junkyardhero]

Yep… never chop the throttle when it starts getting loose .

i've found out the hard way...

 

[RustyRatRod]

First off, I don’t start sentences with the word AND.
Secondly, you somehow took my words and made a mountain out of a mole hill. I never wrote that the people that I mentioned did or did not have frame reinforcements. This seems to be a common habit of some people here, you take a kernel of info and extrapolate it to fit some argument that you wish to have.
My original point was that these cars can benefit from stiffer spring rates but as I have stated before, a solid platform from which to work allows the springs to work better. If you have huge torsion bars and stiff leaf springs on a stock unibody, before you ever reach the limits of the springs, the chassis has flexed. Some call this condition lost motion.
It has probably been proven that with a reinforced unibody, you can use lower spring rates since they will be working against a solid foundation.

It's actually grammatically correct to start a sentence with and in one instance.

......and this is it. As in a continuation of something. Then, it's ok. lol

 

[mbaird]

Skiing and Motocross experience actually gave me some insight into picking lines and looking through corners . Not to say I can really drive … but they give you a head start . The faster you’re going the farther ahead you look .