reconditioning gears and sliders

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ChargerST

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I have some pretty worn gears and synchro sliders and I tried grinding the dog teeth so that they are somewhat pointy again (vs. rounded as before).
Turned out ok but could this be a problem in the sense of that the dog teeth are too far back now? Didn't grind of a lot but removed some material.

@A/J, what do you think?

Here are some pics:

20210524-151742-1.jpg


before:

20210524-153224-1.jpg


after (the one tooth in the middle needs some more work obviously):

20210524-153241-1.jpg
 
I pretty much did the same thing, trans is assembled but not in the car yet so not much help. Sorry. I give you guys in Europe a lot of credit for working on American iron over there.

I bought a swap meet 833 to go in my Valiant. Seller said it worked fine when removed from a 65 Barracuda. (Of course, they all say that) I thought it was a good deal at $325 with Hurst shifter but I've had to put a lot of money into it and had to draw a line somewhere. It will be interesting to see if my similar grinding works out.

Maybe Dan will be kind enough to comment. @Dan Brewer
 
I think you will be fine, you can go a little more with no problem.
 
My dad used to braze up the gears in his old Indian motorcycles. Brazed them up and filed them back to shape. Back then you couldn't get new gears and the only thing you could find at swap meets were wore out junk.
 
Nice looking work, probably nicer than what needs to be done.
You gotta remember that by the time those points get that close to each other, the brass rings are supposed to have brought them to within a few rpm of eachother, so snick in it goes.
For a streeter;
The most important part of rebuilding the synchronizers regards the brass to brake interface. The brakes need to be roughed up a bit so the brass will "screw onto" them and bite hard; but when they have done that, they have to still be up high on the brake, so that you don't have to come back in a short time later, to replace them. If they sink to the bottom, they will be useless ...... if in fact the struts don't pop out first.
To that end, after the brakes have been deglazed, I grab second gear, the most used gear , and fit every brass I have onto it, in search of the highest sitting one that "screws" on. Don't be fooled with a hi-sitting brass ring; it could be bent. Make sure it screws on and bites with very little pressure applied. Line them on the bench from highest sitting to lowest sitting.
If I only have 4 rings to play with, I put the next tallest on the input, but not for the reason you might think. The input is NEVER in the right place. The input is always out too far to the front of the case. So by putting the tall ring on it, the brass gets half a chance to slow the disc down before the slider comes aknocking.
And then, the shortest goes on First gear, cuz with the car stopped, and engine at idle, this gear experiences the smallest speed differential.
Whereas in the other gears, on a 5500rpm shift, the rpm will drop to about 71/72% so say 3900, which is 1600rpm. So therefore I like to put the higher sitting rings where they do the most good, first on second, then the input, and finally on third. By the time you hit third gear at 5500, you are usually speeding, so you don't have to have a great ring on third; cuz a lot of the time you are gonna skip right over third and shift from second straight into fourth.
Ok but, in order for the brass to be pushed onto the brakes, the struts need to be sorta locked to the sliders. If the springs are lazy, the slider will move right over the struts as soon as the struts meet resistance. And if the gear speeds have not yet been synchronized, then you get the grinding business. So when I build a trans, I take those springs and stretch the chit out of them, then force them into place. This is not the place to wuss-out. I don't care how hard the stick is to move. Get those springs working and stop the grinding. I have even occasionally double sprung them.
Finally; make sure that the working surfaces of the teeth and splines, are not worn at an angle, which will tend to kick them out of gear, when the power is applied. If you find such, back-cut the splines and/or the clutch teeth so that different teeth will step up to the plate. Check the teeth on every gear. You will find two groups of 4 or 5teeth, set apart by 180 degrees, that are doing all the work. I back-cut those regardless, so it will be impossible for them to ever work again. Now 10 other virgin teeth will step up. Next, I back-cut every spline on the slider in a similar manner. Now those new teeth will be trapped behind the ridge, and unable to come out for as long as power is being applied. As soon as you clutch it, out they will pop.
Now as to the back-cutting of the slider; you only need to remove a couple if thousands of metal, if you do it in the right place; let the wear-pattern be your guide.
Doing these tricks will ensure another 100,000 miles of fun. My synchronizers are circa maybe 1969, and some of the brass may also be. In total those parts may have had over 35/40 years of continuous service, allbeit freshened now and then, and the brass rearranged.
One time, I went to the Mopar dealer and bought two sets of brand spanking new rings. Guess what, I still have most of them because every single one of them was bent and rocked on the brakes. So don't think that new brass will automatically solve your shifting issues. I straightened the best of them and stuck them on gears that I was willing to take a chance. Let the "screwing-on" brake action be your sign of serviceability.
BTW
I can make up a nice set of four bent rings, and give you a good price,lol. NOT!

Oh yeah I almost forgot;
as to roughing up the sliders, I chuck then in a lath and spin them up a lil,IDK maybe 500 rpm. Then take a strip of 180 emery-cloth laid over a file and take a couple of swipes on the brake, putting added pressure on the base up next to the teeth. Because that will be the unworn area. I don't want that area to "bell" my brass.
Now two of those gears run in opposite direction of the other two. If you accidentally bias them all the same then your brass will bite better in one direction than in the other. You can use that to your advantage..... or not.
What I mean is, in first gear, if you bias to the upshift, invariably it will work too well, and when stopped the brass will grab so hard that if the teeth don't line up, you will never get it into gear. So then you have to let the pedal up and start over. This might take several tries. So on first gear, I bias to the downshift side while all the gears are moving, and so getting down into first at speed is never a problem. And since the bite is less going in, I just wait a few micro-seconds for the brass to do it's job, then jam it in just before synchronization. That way , when leaving the carshow/event/ice-cream-parlor, I don't look like a fool.
But in Second I want that brass to bite hard so that the 1-2 shift is lightning! I don't much care if it is a lil slower downshifting into Second.
Third again I bias towards the upshift, and
since you never downshift into Fourth lol, it gets no bias at all.
so how do I bias it?
Well firstly the gear has to be spinning in the right direction. And secondly I told you to use 180 emery because it's nice and safe to use that. But if I had told you to use 100, and I'm not there to oversee you, you can wreck your gear with that grit . I don't mean wreck physically, I mean wreck the bite. And then if you put it together like that you might come to find out that it downshifts great! but won't upshift for nothing. Ok so that's the cautionary speech.
So now, I actually use 100 cloth. And with 100 it only takes a swipe or two, I can feel it on the paper. So to bias, on the final swipe, instead of lifting straight up at the end of the swipe, I just run the cloth off the side, which will make a slight "screw". BadaBoom!
Sorry for the novel; lemmee know which part is not helpful,
and maybe I'll delete it, lol.
 
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Nice looking work, probably nicer than what needs to be done.
You gotta remember that by the time those points get that close to each other, the brass rings are supposed to have brought them to within a few rpm of eachother, so snick in it goes.
For a streeter;
The most important part of rebuilding the synchronizers regards the brass to brake interface. The brakes need to be roughed up a bit so the brass will "screw onto" them and bite hard; but when they have done that, they have to still be up high on the brake, so that you don't have to come back in a short time later, to replace them. If they sink to the bottom, they will be useless ...... if in fact the struts don't pop out first.
To that end, after the brakes have been deglazed, I grab second gear, the most used gear , and fit every brass I have onto it, in search of the highest sitting one that "screws" on. Don't be fooled with a hi-sitting brass ring; it could be bent. Make sure it screws on and bites with very little pressure applied. Line them on the bench from highest sitting to lowest sitting.
If I only have 4 rings to play with, I put the next tallest on the input, but not for the reason you might think.

as to roughing up the sliders, I chuck then in a lath and spin them up a lil,IDK maybe 500 rpm. Then take a strip of 180 emery-cloth laid over a file and take a couple of swipes on the brake, putting added pressure on the base up next to the teeth. Because that will be the unworn area. I don't want that area to "bell" my brass.
Now two of those gears run in opposite direction of the other two. If you accidentally bias them all the same then your brass will bite better in one direction than in the other. You can use that to your advantage..... or not.
What I mean is, in first gear, if you bias to the upshift, invariably it will work too well, and when stopped the brass will grab so hard that if the teeth don't line up, you will never get it into gear. So then you have to let the pedal up and start over. This might take several tries. So on first gear, I bias to the downshift side while all the gears are moving, and so getting down into first at speed is never a problem. And since the bite is less going in, I just wait a few micro-seconds for the brass to do it's job, then jam it in just before synchronization. That way , when leaving the carshow/event/ice-cream-parlor, I don't look like a fool.
But in Second I want that brass to bite hard so that the 1-2 shift is lightning! I don't much care if it is a lil slower downshifting into Second.
Third again I bias towards the upshift, and
since you never downshift into Fourth lol, it gets no bias at all.
so how do I bias it?
Well firstly the gear has to be spinning in the right direction. And secondly I told you to use 180 emery because it's nice and safe to use that. But if I had told you to use 100, and I'm not there to oversee you, you can wreck your gear with that grit . I don't mean wreck physically, I mean wreck the bite. And then if you put it together like that you might come to find out that it downshifts great! but won't upshift for nothing. Ok so that's the cautionary speech.
So now, I actually use 100 cloth. And with 100 it only takes a swipe or two, I can feel it on the paper. So to bias, on the final swipe, instead of lifting straight up at the end of the swipe, I just run the cloth off the side, which will make a slight "screw". BadaBoom!
Sorry for the novel; lemmee know which part is not helpful,
and maybe I'll delete it, lol.

Already deglazed the cones and put a "screw" on them (found the idea in another of your posts). When upshifting the mainshaft spins at a lower speed than the next gear. e.g 2-3 shift: mainshaft spins 2nd gear speed and 3rd gear spins faster. When the synchro collar pushes the brass ring onto the 3rd gear the ring initially is slower than the 3rd gear cone. Third gear spins to the right (when looking from the input side of the transmission) but faster than the ring - that means the if you want to bias the "screw" for upshift the "screw" needs to turn left (when placing the gear on the bench with the cone facing up).
Second and fourth need the screw turn to the right (if biased for upshift).
First as well needs a right turning screw if biased for downshift.
so all in all only 3rd needs a left turning screw.

The input is NEVER in the right place. The input is always out too far to the front of the case. So by putting the tall ring on it, the brass gets half a chance to slow the disc down before the slider comes aknocking.

Interesting, never heard about this before. I wonder how far out the input is and if it could be remedied by using a thin shim between the input shaft teeth and the front bearing (that should put the gear back as the bearing locates the input shaft in the case.

And then, the shortest goes on First gear, cuz with the car stopped, and engine at idle, this gear experiences the smallest speed differential.
Whereas in the other gears, on a 5500rpm shift, the rpm will drop to about 71/72% so say 3900, which is 1600rpm. So therefore I like to put the higher sitting rings where they do the most good, first on second, then the input, and finally on third. By the time you hit third gear at 5500, you are usually speeding, so you don't have to have a great ring on third; cuz a lot of the time you are gonna skip right over third and shift from second straight into fourth.
Ok but, in order for the brass to be pushed onto the brakes, the struts need to be sorta locked to the sliders. If the springs are lazy, the slider will move right over the struts as soon as the struts meet resistance. And if the gear speeds have not yet been synchronized, then you get the grinding business. So when I build a trans, I take those springs and stretch the chit out of them, then force them into place. This is not the place to wuss-out. I don't care how hard the stick is to move. Get those springs working and stop the grinding. I have even occasionally double sprung them.

On the agenda too (stretch and offset double springs - got the idea from you as well ;) ). Maybe this is too much though and i only double spring the struts. My reasoning is that dual springs probably retain the added spring force longer than a stretched single spring. But feel free to educate me ;)

Finally; make sure that the working surfaces of the teeth and splines, are not worn at an angle, which will tend to kick them out of gear, when the power is applied. If you find such, back-cut the splines and/or the clutch teeth so that different teeth will step up to the plate. Check the teeth on every gear. You will find two groups of 4 or 5teeth, set apart by 180 degrees, that are doing all the work. I back-cut those regardless, so it will be impossible for them to ever work again. Now 10 other virgin teeth will step up. Next, I back-cut every spline on the slider in a similar manner. Now those new teeth will be trapped behind the ridge, and unable to come out for as long as power is being applied. As soon as you clutch it, out they will pop.

I observed that it is usually 3 adjacent dog teeth that have wear (and 180° apart another 3 teeth). When back cutting the slider do you cut them in an angle (the later sliders have this feature from the factory and I think it's called torque lock)?

Now as to the back-cutting of the slider; you only need to remove a couple if thousands of metal, if you do it in the right place; let the wear-pattern be your guide.
Doing these tricks will ensure another 100,000 miles of fun. My synchronizers are circa maybe 1969, and some of the brass may also be. In total those parts may have had over 35/40 years of continuous service, allbeit freshened now and then, and the brass rearranged.
One time, I went to the Mopar dealer and bought two sets of brand spanking new rings. Guess what, I still have most of them because every single one of them was bent and rocked on the brakes. So don't think that new brass will automatically solve your shifting issues. I straightened the best of them and stuck them on gears that I was willing to take a chance. Let the "screwing-on" brake action be your sign of serviceability.
BTW
I can make up a nice set of four bent rings, and give you a good price,lol. NOT!

Thanks for the great input!
 
Interesting, never heard about this before. I wonder how far out the input is and if it could be remedied by using a thin shim between the input shaft teeth and the front bearing (that should put the gear back as the bearing locates the input shaft in the case.
Take a look at the wear-pattern inside the 3-4 slider. I mean the slider goes far enough, and Fourth is not a high wear gear and all, but after you put the thing back together, center up the 3-4 slider, Pull the input gear forward, and then you will see that the base of the input brake is a good .060 to .100, I'm guessing, further away from the slider than Third is. Every A833 I ever rebuilt is that way.......... which is only a couple of dozen,lol. It doesn't seem to bother it cuz with 3.55s, the 3-4 shift at WOT, doesn't come until after 100mph, so it's pretty rare that you would actually exercise that brass.
 
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On the agenda too (stretch and offset double springs - got the idea from you as well ;) ). Maybe this is too much though and i only double spring the struts. My reasoning is that dual springs probably retain the added spring force longer than a stretched single spring. But feel free to educate me ;)
I have only double sprung my own box and my box has the square section springs. They have been in there since 1999 and I have never not had them in there, so I cannot actually tell you how much better, if better at all, it works.
In my understanding of springs, they can only loose tension if they get overheated or over stressed, or fatigued. I don't think either situation can arise after these are installed.
 
I observed that it is usually 3 adjacent dog teeth that have wear (and 180° apart another 3 teeth). When back cutting the slider do you cut them in an angle (the later sliders have this feature from the factory and I think it's called torque lock)?
Take another look. The coast side is usually 3x2. But in my experience , the drive is usually more like 4 or 5 x2
When back cutting the slider do you cut them in an angle?
I use a hand-held electric die grinder with a small grinding wheel, about 1/16 x 5/8, and cut a shallow divot with the edge of the wheel. To fit that buzz-saw in there, I have to hold it at an angle. Not very scientific, but they get what they get.
I was taught this technique in 1978 or so, by the line-foreman in a rebuild shop. I replaced the previous guy, who supposedly sucked at it. As soon as they figured out I was teachable, they moved me into ever more complex stuff. Stuff that they had never done before, because they had never had anyone that could do it,lol. I felt pretty important there for several years.
__________________
They started me out on 3-speed Muncie pick-up transmissions, with non-synchronized low-gears. I built hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of those.
My favorite transmissions to build were the RoadRangers. These were installed into 18-wheeler hi-way tractors. We call them semi's up here. They were born as 9-speeds but very quickly evolved into 13s,15s,18s, and eventually 21s. But I quit that job before the 21s showed up.
 
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