Seen this yet?

[grumpuscreature]

Some interesting comments and I have to agree the guy went too far. Is he a wacko? According to the article he was a retired security officer for the State Department. Should he be prosecuted? Hell no!! The street punks need to learn to leave people's homes alone. Once I had a burglar tell me,"Go ahead and pull the trigger. You'll do more time for shooting me than I will for breaking in your house". He was wrong, but that attitude is out there and needs to be corrected. I feel I should be able to do whatever I feel is necessary to protect my house and those in it.

 

[cascius]

But in Conceal carry class at least here in Wisconsin we were taught to unload the magazine at a threat

In Kansas you'd be charged with Murder. We were told there is a difference between necessary force and excessive force.

 

[ramenth]

Sorry but I don't feel sorry for somebody getting killed because they decided to break into some nut jobs house.

And I think you just hit the gist of the entire debate.

 

[ramenth]

In Kansas you'd be charged with Murder. We were told there is a difference between necessary force and excessive force.

And NY's castle laws are all over the map. The use of deadly force is justified only if you have no other reasonable means of escape.

If someone breaks through my front door and I have a clear path to the my side door, I'm supposed to leave.

If someone breaks through my front door and I'm trapped upstairs with no way out but a window and a two story drop, then do I have the right to shoot or will some lawyer try to make the argument that it's "reasonable" for me to attempt to go out a window and make the the drop?

Talk about a law written by trial lawyers...

 

[cascius]

^That would pretty much suck. One good thing here is you are not required to retreat. You are allowed to stand your ground whether in your house or your vehicle.

 

[Revhendo]

I have no problem with defending my homestead. I do think this guy is off of his nut and that the .22 Pac-Man to the brainpan was a bit much.

Just for giggles, how many of us here who bid good riddance to these two intruders have actually taken another persons life?

 

[ramenth]

Just for giggles, how many of us here who bid good riddance to these two intruders have actually taken another persons life?

Do I have to answer that?

 

[Revhendo]

Do I have to answer that?

No sir. Just provoking some folks to inner thought.

 

[67cudafb]

The only thing I think he did wrong. You have the right to remain silent. You have a right to a lawyer. Maybe should have called the law a little sooner. Two less dirt bags for the rest of us to deal with. If their parents raised them better this would not have been the outcome.

 

[SoulSurvivor]

My guess is the whole thing could have been avoided by the sound of 00 buck being chambered in a 12 gauge scatter gun. If that doesn't make them run one blast to the upper torso will do the trick. No 'finishing off'. Guy had the wrong gun for home protection.

 

[cascius]

My guess is the whole thing could have been avoided by the sound of 00 buck being chambered in a 12 gauge scatter gun. If that doesn't make them run one blast to the upper torso will do the trick. No 'finishing off'. Guy had the wrong gun for home protection.

If the first person had any sort of brain that may have helped but the second person obviously had none. He shot the first person multiple times with a Mini 14, that's a .223 caliber rifle. Not exactly a small or quiet gun. Then after it jammed he proceeded to shoot that person with a .22 pistol. If you were the 2nd person that broke in, and you knew you were both unarmed and heard multiple gunshots, would you go looking for the source or turn and run like hell?

 

[1972DusterPaul]

I have no problem with defending my homestead. I do think this guy is off of his nut and that the .22 Pac-Man to the brainpan was a bit much.

Just for giggles, how many of us here who bid good riddance to these two intruders have actually taken another persons life?

I wondered the same thing...

 

[SoulSurvivor]

If the first person had any sort of brain that may have helped but the second person obviously had none. He shot the first person multiple times with a Mini 14, that's a .223 caliber rifle. Not exactly a small or quiet gun. Then after it jammed he proceeded to shoot that person with a .22 pistol. If you were the 2nd person that broke in, and you knew you were both unarmed and heard multiple gunshots, would you go looking for the source or turn and run like hell?

I think we all agree the two intruders were at fault here. The consequences are sad. I know what a Mini 14 is(he should have cleaned his because guns don't jam unless you fail to maintain them). But one or two 55 grain rounds is no match for one blast from 12 3/4 stainless steel or brass projectiles from 10 feet away. I am just saying the sound of chambering a shot gun shell is pretty distinct. If you continue on you have not headed the warning to get the hell out of there. Personally I think the first line of defense is a dog. They were on a suicide pact.

 

[mwls73duster360]

i dont own a gun but i have a 5' razor sharp katana ive scared enough people away with just by walking out side with lol

 

[JTG]

The mind set by some here is really pathetic, unless its a kill or be killed situation or your family have all been executed upstairs, only then eliminating the threat by extreme force would obviously be acceptable because it becomes a no choice in the matter senario.
If pointing a gun at couple of punk *** kids is all it takes to remove them from the inside of my property (where they will probably never return again), then for me thats the better resolution all around.
Someone breaking into your house is definitely 100% wrong, you becoming a murdering psychopath over your materialistic poccessions is also wrong.

 

[MattP]

I am just saying the sound of chambering a shot gun shell is pretty distinct. If you continue on you have not headed the warning to get the hell out of there.

This is what I have told my wife about defending our upstairs bedroom. If they keep coming after the pump then you know there is no question they are serious about getting to you not just stealing stuff.

The mind set by some here is really pathetic, unless its a kill or be killed situation or your family have all been executed upstairs, only then eliminating the threat by extreme force would obviously be acceptable because it becomes a no choice in the matter senario.
If pointing a gun at couple of punk *** kids is all it takes to remove them from the inside of my property (where they will probably never return again), then for me thats the better resolution all around.
Someone breaking into your house is definitely 100% wrong, you becoming a murdering psychopath over your materialistic poccessions is also wrong.

I'm not a fan of the "you killed over a possession" argument. It's not the material possession... it's the principle.

The thieves in this case decided that society's rules didn't apply to them. It was ok for them to walk into a man's home and take what they wanted. They felt they were smarter, stronger, or just sneakier and he would just have to deal with it.

Their mistake was picking someone with the ability to defend themselves from being taken advantage of. It happens. People underestimate other people all of the time. Had they not picked the wrong guy they wouldn't have ended up dead in the basement. They could have just have easily picked a house with a feeble old man and kicked him down the stairs before robbing the place.

I wish we could get passed this PC garbage and get down to basics. You cross that threshold with the idea you're going to dominate someone you better be ready to back it up.


How he killed them doesn't matter to me. As far as I care he could still be torturing them in his basement. They invaded and got dealt with. Unfortunately we live in a PC world and aren't allowed to truly deal with people who attack us.


If there was an old codger behind every door waiting to kill an intruder home invasions would drop to zero overnight.




Possessions aren't worth dying for? Land is a possession and plenty of blood has been spilled defending it over history.

 

[ramenth]

The mind set by some here is really pathetic

Nice to know you hold yourself so much above everyone else.

unless its a kill or be killed situation or your family have all been executed upstairs, only then eliminating the threat by extreme force would obviously be acceptable because it becomes a no choice in the matter senario.

Some would prefer to eliminate the threat before it went that far.

If pointing a gun at couple of punk *** kids is all it takes to remove them from the inside of my property (where they will probably never return again), then for me thats the better resolution all around.

And how do you know that those same punk *** kids won't hold a grudge and the next time they come back they will be armed, therefore forcing the scenario above?

Think of the mindset that allows someone to break into your house to begin with. There's no conscience there. There's only the need to take what's yours and screw you. Now, you've just pulled a gun and chased them off. Some might run, knowing you're armed, it might scare 'em straight. Some might, just might, take offense to that and want to save face. You've scared 'em. Now it's time to scare you. They come back armed, with a bigger gun than you've got, and more of 'em, with friends.

Hey, if you can take it to extremes in your scenarios, so can I.

Someone breaking into your house is definitely 100% wrong, you becoming a murdering psychopath over your materialistic poccessions is also wrong.

So everyone who defends themselves, their families, and their homes in such a manner is automatically classified as a murdering psychopath in your eyes. Like I said at the beginning: nice to know you hold yourself so much above everyone else.

 

[67cuda360]

there is a big difference between defending yourself by incapacitating your intruder and point blank executing someone. From reading the article this is clearly the latter!

I agree, if they didn't break-in in the first place they would still be alive, but the actions of the homeowner are no where near justified in my opinion.

 

[jaimus]

I have no problem with criminals being killed for trying to burglarize your home. I don't care if they're armed or not. Actually I wish we could shoot them for breaking into our cars. I'll be damned if I spend half my life away from my home working, to have some a-hole that sits on their *** all day walk over to my place and steal the stuff I work so hard for.

This guy is a nut job though. He's obviously been waiting a long time for something like this to happen. You don't wait until the next day to contact authorities when you have blood on your hands. The story about the girl does sound pretty weird though. Coming down the stairs after hearing gun shots and then laughing?

He's got a fighting chance since he's not in California. Here they can break into your house and sue you if they get hurt.

X2 on the first paragraph,...goddammit, If I was a lawyer, and good with words, I'd take this case for free,...and in my world, if they are juvenials they would get they're names in the paper,...under 18 or not,...shame on them, shame on they're parents, and shame on they're cats for chrissakes,...and to hell with contacting the authorities,...grab thier ID's, take a picture to send to thier next of kin and bury em out back. Problem solved,...for you and society.

 

[Mad Dart]

The guy is fkd no matter what. He probably ate a Mustard Sandwich at his table when he was done. "Sling Blade" , He must be inbred or some chitt like that.

Those kids may have deserved to get shot and killed but not executed like that.

 

[MattP]

If the guy had a 12 gauge or was a better shot there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[daredevil]

This is why my home security is 44 mag or 000 buckshot. I want a clean kill. Dont want to ever just injure someone. I dont want to live life looking over my shoulder wondering when they are coming for payback.Sorry but thats the way it is.If I knew they were kids they would get the benefit of a warning shot,if they still advanced they would meet their maker.

 

[Mad Dart]

If the guy had a 12 gauge or was a better shot there wouldn't be a problem.

12 gauge is the best home protection. Mini 14 is to finish them off when they are running away!!

 

[JTG]

there is a big difference between defending yourself by incapacitating your intruder and point blank executing someone. From reading the article this is clearly the latter!

I agree, if they didn't break-in in the first place they would still be alive, but the actions of the homeowner are no where near justified in my opinion.

Concur

 

[67Dart273]

Nice to know you hold yourself so much above everyone else.



Some would prefer to eliminate the threat before it went that far.



And how do you know that those same punk *** kids won't hold a grudge and the next time they come back they will be armed, therefore forcing the scenario above?

Think of the mindset that allows someone to break into your house to begin with. There's no conscience there. There's only the need to take what's yours and screw you. Now, you've just pulled a gun and chased them off. Some might run, knowing you're armed, it might scare 'em straight. Some might, just might, take offense to that and want to save face. You've scared 'em. Now it's time to scare you. They come back armed, with a bigger gun than you've got, and more of 'em, with friends.

Hey, if you can take it to extremes in your scenarios, so can I.



So everyone who defends themselves, their families, and their homes in such a manner is automatically classified as a murdering psychopath in your eyes. Like I said at the beginning: nice to know you hold yourself so much above everyone else.

You really need to find some law books (hell it's all on the internet) for your and a couple of other states. There is NO state that I'm aware of that allows someone to KILL intruders who are already wounded, evidently incapacitated, lying on the floor/ ground. And don't flip it off by "lying your way out" because powder burns and bullet angles WILL tell the story

He may or may not have been justified for shooting these people when they were on their feet. According to the details we have been given, this guy is (self addmittedly) guilty of murder plain and simple

If I myself had faced these two in my home, there very well may have been gunfire. I may or may not have hit one centrally enough or enough times to cause death, but I can assure you that as one or the other was lying, bleeding on the floor, with no activity towards weapons on the "perp's" part, that is where it would have stopped.

THAT IS the central issue here,

NOT whether they died under other conditions, but that they were "finished off" after being essentially put out of action

Most self defense law contains similar language to "believe to be in imminent danger of loss of life or serious injury to yourself or others."

It would be very difficut, I would think, (for the defense) to prove that dragging some bleeding perp over next to their partner so that you can "finish them off" would hold up in any court.

I predict this guy is going down -- probably charged with 2nd degree murder, and may plead it down to manslaughter.