So i ordered a limiter plate from don at fbo, the plate arrived and i pulled the distributer out of my 360 taking pictures of where the rotor was sitting at. I pulled the distributer just to find out that the distributer i have had all along is the newer mopar distributer that has the mallory guts in it with adjustable mechanical advance, so i got the mechanical advance set at 22 degrees running an initial of 12 degrees with 34 total and it ran good but of course the springs that came with the limiter plate do not fit the newer mopar distributers so my advance was coming way to soon around 2000 rpm this is in a four wheel drive truck mind you. So i had 3 or 4 older style mopar distributers i threw ne together with springs that will make it all cme in around 3000 rpm according to dons sheets. I take my newer mopar distributer out drop in the one i put together go to start it up and its not running right so i thought maybe the gap is set wrong on the pick up coil or something and figured i'd mess with it later. I put my other (newer mopar distributer) back in and go to start it and now it wont even start and its kicking air out the carburetor...... what the hell is going on here? obviousl i have the distributer sitting in wrong or something and how in the world do i correct this mess up? i hope is fairly easy i am so sic and tired of nothing going together and working good for me on this dam engine.
setting a distributer in???
- Thread starter pjc360
- Start date
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if you took pictures of where the rotor was pointing..and you did not move the engine...and you put the distributor back in with the rotor pointing the same direction...
move engine to #1 TDC on the damper....make sure it is on the compression stroke.....see where the rotor is pointing.......find #1 on the cap.....align rotor with #1 on cap......should be close enough to fire engine...
I dont understand why this pos cant just ggo back together and run i am so tied of messing with it all the time. When i dropped the other (older distributer) in that i had changed the springs in and put the limiter plate in it started but was running like crap i dont know if that was from being 180 degrees out or if it has a bad pick up coil in it or what but i decided screw it i will just ut the distributer it has always had back in it and order a spring kit for it since the springs that came with the limiter plate wont work on the mopar distributers with mallory guts
move engine to #1 TDC on the damper ( turn engine over with wrench or bump with starter)
....make sure it is on the compression stroke (put your finger in the spark plug hole...you will feel the compression....stop on #1 TDC on the balancer )........see where the rotor is pointing.( have the distributor cap off)......find #1 on the cap..( look on distributor cap for plug wire going to #1 spark plug)......align rotor with #1 on cap......should be close enough to fire engine...
went the engine is at #1 TDC....the slot in the intermediate shaft should be pointing at the first bolt on the intake manifold on dirve side......( BTW where that slot points does not really matter ...but trying to make is easier)
Didnt touch anything all i did was try dropping a ddifferent distributer in it and it was not running the way it was with the original distributer so i decided to put original distributer back in and now it wont even start just blows a bunch of air back thru the carburetor. I think when i was trying to turn thee shaft on the distributer to get the rotor pointing the way it was in the pictures that i took messed it up some how.
So how do i know when engine is at number 1 tdc? and how do i turn the engine over with a wrench? i need details i have never done anything even remotely close to this before. I just barley started working on this truck a year ago and i just bareley started getting into timing like a month ago. I know how to take distributer apart change springs and change the mechanical advance but this is out of my league never done it before never seen it done nothing.
1 1/4 inch socket on breaker bar...or bump with starter..
and putt your finger in number 1 spark plug...went the pistons comes up you will feel the compression...
stop the balancer ...on the timing marks on the timing chain cover...
and putt your finger in number 1 spark plug...went the pistons comes up you will feel the compression...
stop the balancer ...on the timing marks on the timing chain cover...
stop it while its ctraking over? or when i feel the piston coming have the person bumping the starter stop and then line the balancer up with 0? sorry i am not trying to be annoying nd im sure i sound extremley stupid but im just trying to understand this.
I may just have to take it to a shop tommarrow and have them do it becaus i have to be to work at 10 and wont have time to sit there and mess with it. if i was comfortable with knowing i could do this i'd try myelf first. I tend to make things alot more complicated then they have to be and i am working on not doing that. I'm sure this is very easy to do and once i seen somone do it or once i understand the information better i'll be like oh yeah that was dumb of me not to understand that, thats how it always turns out.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
You don't have to mess with anything. Pardon my "blunt" but learn to do this RIGHT and you'll never have to "mess" with it again.
SImply understand that no1 fires every OTHER time the timing marks come up. When no1 is not firing no6 is.
THERE ARE two ways to do this:
ONE IF you are working on an engine with the valve covers off, bring the engine around, either bumping the starter or a wrench NOT to TDC, but RATHER where it is that you want the INITIAL TIMING, say, 10* BTC or wherever
LOOK at the valves. If no1 valves are both closed, then no1 is ready to fire. If no 6 valves are both closed, then no6 is ready. Stick the dist. in with the rotor pointing at the no1 or no6 tower, accordingly. Finish below...............................
SECOND METHOD
If the valve covers are on, remove no1 spark plug, stick your finger in, and bump the engine on the starter until you JUST START to feel compression. You may have to "go around" a couple of times the first time you do this, and then you'll know.
WHEN YOU START to feel compression, WATCH the timing marks. As above DO NOT set the marks at TDC but RATHER where it is that you want initial timing, once again, "say" 10 BTC
Slap the dist in with the vacuum advance "having room" to move, and the rotor pointing to the no1 tower
NOTE I ALWAYS take 30 seconds and scribe a mark on the top rim of the distributor case in exact line with the no1 tower, so I can stick the dist in without arguing with the cap.
OK LET'S FINISH
You have the dist in, RETARD the dist (cw on a small block) and
IF YOU HAVE points, slowly rotate the dist advanced (CCW on a small block) until the points just open. Use a test light.
IF YOU HAVE a breakerless dist, do as above, only slowly rotate the dist back advance until the reluctor wheel tip is centered in the middle of the pickup coil.
WHEN you have learned to do this, the engine should fire up as if it had been parked overnight.
Then just get your light and make final timing adjustments.
I haven't coughed an engine back through the carb in over 30 years, and it's because I use this method every single time. Once you learn it, the engine will start right up with no fuss at all.
SImply understand that no1 fires every OTHER time the timing marks come up. When no1 is not firing no6 is.
THERE ARE two ways to do this:
ONE IF you are working on an engine with the valve covers off, bring the engine around, either bumping the starter or a wrench NOT to TDC, but RATHER where it is that you want the INITIAL TIMING, say, 10* BTC or wherever
LOOK at the valves. If no1 valves are both closed, then no1 is ready to fire. If no 6 valves are both closed, then no6 is ready. Stick the dist. in with the rotor pointing at the no1 or no6 tower, accordingly. Finish below...............................
SECOND METHOD
If the valve covers are on, remove no1 spark plug, stick your finger in, and bump the engine on the starter until you JUST START to feel compression. You may have to "go around" a couple of times the first time you do this, and then you'll know.
WHEN YOU START to feel compression, WATCH the timing marks. As above DO NOT set the marks at TDC but RATHER where it is that you want initial timing, once again, "say" 10 BTC
Slap the dist in with the vacuum advance "having room" to move, and the rotor pointing to the no1 tower
NOTE I ALWAYS take 30 seconds and scribe a mark on the top rim of the distributor case in exact line with the no1 tower, so I can stick the dist in without arguing with the cap.
OK LET'S FINISH
You have the dist in, RETARD the dist (cw on a small block) and
IF YOU HAVE points, slowly rotate the dist advanced (CCW on a small block) until the points just open. Use a test light.
IF YOU HAVE a breakerless dist, do as above, only slowly rotate the dist back advance until the reluctor wheel tip is centered in the middle of the pickup coil.
WHEN you have learned to do this, the engine should fire up as if it had been parked overnight.
Then just get your light and make final timing adjustments.
I haven't coughed an engine back through the carb in over 30 years, and it's because I use this method every single time. Once you learn it, the engine will start right up with no fuss at all.
ok so i need to take the number one spark plug out while leaving the distributer in the motor with the cap popped off. Then i have my helper bump the starter while holding my finger over the spark plug hole and as soon as i feel air pushing on my finger i look at the mark on the damper (timing mark) and if it is at say 10 degrees btdc then i grab my distributer cap and place the cap over the rotor to where the rotor is directly below the number 1 tower on the cap. Then i should be good to start it and fine tune the timing with the light rom there correct? and if the damper does not land on say 10 degrees btdc then just keep bumping the starter past the exhaust stroke untill i get to the compression stroke again (feeling air blowing on my finger). I think i have it done? or am i missing something?
My damper or timing degree wheel does not have any timing tape on it shoing numbers it just has a straight line carved into it and when you shine a timin light you can clearly se it and you can see it without a light. So when you say (watch the timing marks) this is what you are talking about correct? the line in the damper that should alighn straight across from the zero when dialing in the timing with a dial back timing light correct? and then from there i put the distributer cap on with the rotor being directly below the number 1 tower on the distributer cap?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I think you have it, I don't quite understand your statement
"then i grab my distributer cap and place the cap over the rotor to where the rotor is directly below the number 1 tower on the cap. "
The cap only fits one way, so you rotate the dist. until the rotor is at the no1 tower
To throw a wrench in the works, the rotor will only point to the "shop manual" no1 tower IF the distributor drive gear is in correctly
BUT DON'T FRET
Even if the drive gear is in wrong, you DO NOT have to use the "normal" no1 tower. IN other words, on a Mopar, the dist. only goes in one of two ways, so you can 'make' whereever the rotor is pointing as your starting point at no1
But back to doing it "right." Assuming the drive gear is in OK, the vacuum advance should end up being "free to rotate" that is, not jammed against the manifold or against the firewall, and the rotor should then be somewhere near where you need it to be, in order to line up with the cap.
I hope this is not getting confusing. This is easy once you get it down, you'll NEVER forget it
So far as your helper, you should be able to jumper across the starter relay and do this yourself. I don't even look at the marks when feeling for compression. I just stick my finger in the hole, and with the other hand, run a screwdriver across the start relay. When I start to feel compression, THEN I watch the marks. Even nowadays, sometimes I have to "go round" because I missed the first time.
MUCH easier to put the marks where you want with a socket on the crank.
"then i grab my distributer cap and place the cap over the rotor to where the rotor is directly below the number 1 tower on the cap. "
The cap only fits one way, so you rotate the dist. until the rotor is at the no1 tower
To throw a wrench in the works, the rotor will only point to the "shop manual" no1 tower IF the distributor drive gear is in correctly
BUT DON'T FRET
Even if the drive gear is in wrong, you DO NOT have to use the "normal" no1 tower. IN other words, on a Mopar, the dist. only goes in one of two ways, so you can 'make' whereever the rotor is pointing as your starting point at no1
But back to doing it "right." Assuming the drive gear is in OK, the vacuum advance should end up being "free to rotate" that is, not jammed against the manifold or against the firewall, and the rotor should then be somewhere near where you need it to be, in order to line up with the cap.
I hope this is not getting confusing. This is easy once you get it down, you'll NEVER forget it
So far as your helper, you should be able to jumper across the starter relay and do this yourself. I don't even look at the marks when feeling for compression. I just stick my finger in the hole, and with the other hand, run a screwdriver across the start relay. When I start to feel compression, THEN I watch the marks. Even nowadays, sometimes I have to "go round" because I missed the first time.
MUCH easier to put the marks where you want with a socket on the crank.
Well i tried to get it running and it was a big fat no go. I pulled the number 1 spark plug out of the engine lightly bumped the starter over untill i felt the compression push against my finger. Then i put the distributer cap on pointing the rotor directly below the number 1 terminal of the distributer cap. Then i tried to start it and it just kept blowing air out the carb. So i attempted to pull the distributer out a second time and the gear that runs the oil pump came out with the distributer lol what a bleepin nightmare. So now i'm just going to bring it to a shop of who the owner is a real good friend of my familys and i dont think they will charge me a whole lot to get this sorted out. It's been frustrating me so bad that i can feel myself growing grey hairs over it.
I'm going to stand there and watch them fix it that way i'll know what to do if that ever happens again. I think that oil pump shaft is not alighned right or something. it's gotta be why its not wanting to start.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Again, don't get fretted. You can download a shop manual right here on this site for free:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=manual,+download
For engine repairs, the year of the manual is not all that important.
HERE IS THE THING about Mopar pump shafts.
"Technically" IT DOES NOT MATTER
The only reason Ma, and other manufacturers, specify a certain "hole" for no1 is:
so the assembly line folks can wrench, repeat
so the spark plug harness "lays" nice
so the tuneup guys "see" what they expect to see.
THE FACT is that you can just "throw" the shaft in there any old way, bring up no1 ready to fire, and plug the no1 wire into whatever plug wire tower the rotor is pointing to!!!
But putting the gear in is NO BIG DEAL. You can "walk" the gear up out of the helix if necessary by just twisting with a big screwdriver. The shop manual shows it's orientation
Below drawing shows proper orientation, just bring the marks up to TDC and drop it in. If the gear helix (twist) moves it, just twist with a screwdriver to walk it up and over a tooth
What are the chances your cam drive is worn out / slipped?
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=manual,+download
For engine repairs, the year of the manual is not all that important.
HERE IS THE THING about Mopar pump shafts.
"Technically" IT DOES NOT MATTER
The only reason Ma, and other manufacturers, specify a certain "hole" for no1 is:
so the assembly line folks can wrench, repeat
so the spark plug harness "lays" nice
so the tuneup guys "see" what they expect to see.
THE FACT is that you can just "throw" the shaft in there any old way, bring up no1 ready to fire, and plug the no1 wire into whatever plug wire tower the rotor is pointing to!!!
But putting the gear in is NO BIG DEAL. You can "walk" the gear up out of the helix if necessary by just twisting with a big screwdriver. The shop manual shows it's orientation
Below drawing shows proper orientation, just bring the marks up to TDC and drop it in. If the gear helix (twist) moves it, just twist with a screwdriver to walk it up and over a tooth
What are the chances your cam drive is worn out / slipped?
I got it running, friend of mine showed me that the rotor was not under the number 1 tower of the distributer cap. so we put the cap on to where the rotor was under the number 1 terminal of the cap and it started. Then we grabbed the timing light and the marks are not the same as they were on the balancer. There was a line that went straight across the balancer that you used to line that line up across from 0 with a dial back light. So how do i get the line on the balancer to line up like its supposed to be? because now i dont even know where the timing is sitting at cause of this.
We advanced it all the way to where the distributer could not turn any further because of the distributer hold down clamp and when it was set in the proper way thts exactly how i had it and it was sitting at 12 degrees initial timing 34 total timing . The only thing i was un happy with is how soon all the timing comes in. This is a big heavy truck with 35 inch tires and the timing is all in around 2000 rpm and i need it to be all in around 3000 rpm. So inorder for me to get this thing reading right on the balancer so i can know exactly where my timing is at do i need to pull the cap off and all the wires and turn the distributer 180 degrees and drop it in? or do i need to bump the engine over again with the spark plug pulled untill i see the timing line mark on the balancer pointing in the visinity of zero? and then drop the distributer in with the rotor being ready to contact the number 1 terminal on the cap?
Oh and i highly doubht the cam drive is worn out or slipped this engine only has about 20 thousand miles on it. and its always been taken care of, oil has always been synthetic since break in and is always changed at about 7 thousand miles air filter is always changed. This engine has never been neglected or abused.
Ok i just went out and checked the timing with my dial back timing light and here is whats going on.vIt says 12 degrees initial timing at and idle and 34 degrees total with vaccume advance disconnected. But the line on the degrees wheel is a different line then what i was using to read the timing with before. Is it possible there is two different timing line marks on the balancer incase a person wanted to flip there distributer or put it in a different way then the factory did? i'm thinking there is 2 different timing line marks that are 180 degrees from eachother? because if not i dont know whats going on.... There is a line shining when i shine my timing light at it but its not the same line i was using before because the paint is scraped off a little bit near the line i'm using now and the line i was using before to rread the timing has all the paint around it. Just seems like there must be two different lines to read from and that they are 180 degrees apart on the balancer so that you can still read the timing with the distributer set in a different way or something because its reading 12 degrees at an idle and 34 total at about 2000 rpm and thats what it was reading before i messed it all up but i was getting the reading using a different line on the balancer. I'd still rather get it back to the way its spos to be tho. What do i have to do to get it reading off the line it always read off of? nd hat do i need to do to get the spark plug wires in the correct spot?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
NO. The correct timing mark is the correct mark, PERIOD.
I would, at this point, check your timing mark for accuracy so you KNOW where you are
Buy, get, build a "piston stop" like this
Pull the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and remove the battery ground. You may have to play with the length of the device the first time you use it.
Install the device, gently wrench the engine around until it stops against the device. You are not trying to stop the engine at TDC, but rather with the piston down some amount.
With the piston stopped against the device, make a temporary mark on your balancer directly under TDC on the timing tab.
Now wrench the engine around "backwards" (CCW) until it stops again. Make a second mark on the balancer as before.
TRUE TDC on the balancer will be halfway between the two marks. If your original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.
I do NOT trust "dial up" timing lights, some of them are not accurate.
Please explain what you did with the cap. You cannot rotate the cap on the distributor, it only goes one way. I assume you mean you plugged the no1 wire into whatever hole lined up with the rotor?
Honest, bud, you are overthinking this. Once you learn this, it's EASY
The steps are:
1 Use a piston stop and make sure the marks are accurate
2 Install the distributor drive gear properly
3 Drop the distributor in after making sure no1 is on compression, and the marks are where you want it to fire.
4 Start the engine
I would, at this point, check your timing mark for accuracy so you KNOW where you are
Buy, get, build a "piston stop" like this
Pull the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and remove the battery ground. You may have to play with the length of the device the first time you use it.
Install the device, gently wrench the engine around until it stops against the device. You are not trying to stop the engine at TDC, but rather with the piston down some amount.
With the piston stopped against the device, make a temporary mark on your balancer directly under TDC on the timing tab.
Now wrench the engine around "backwards" (CCW) until it stops again. Make a second mark on the balancer as before.
TRUE TDC on the balancer will be halfway between the two marks. If your original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.
I do NOT trust "dial up" timing lights, some of them are not accurate.
Please explain what you did with the cap. You cannot rotate the cap on the distributor, it only goes one way. I assume you mean you plugged the no1 wire into whatever hole lined up with the rotor?
Honest, bud, you are overthinking this. Once you learn this, it's EASY
The steps are:
1 Use a piston stop and make sure the marks are accurate
2 Install the distributor drive gear properly
3 Drop the distributor in after making sure no1 is on compression, and the marks are where you want it to fire.
4 Start the engine
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