Slant six no idle

-

Slantsix64

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
3,791
Reaction score
1,756
Location
Los Angeles
looks like it's that time where I develop weird car issues. While driving late last night on the freeway I exited drove, drove a mile then my slant started running rough. Pulled over checked the usual visual signs nothing. Car starts up and won't idle at the set speed and will die unless I give it a bunch of gas. Drove it home all misfiring and parked it. Any ideas?
 
looks like it's that time where I develop weird car issues. While driving late last night on the freeway I exited drove, drove a mile then my slant started running rough. Pulled over checked the usual visual signs nothing. Car starts up and won't idle at the set speed and will die unless I give it a bunch of gas. Drove it home all misfiring and parked it. Any ideas?
Sounds like something let loose in the tank or line and clogged up the idle circuit? What carb are you running, is it a Holley 1920 or Carter BBS?

Anyway, I would change the fuel filter and try cleaning out the idle circuit on the carb. SSDan stated how to do that in a thread on here a while back. Get the car running and open the throttle enough that the car will run without the idle circuit screw being in place. Meaning once the car is running and the rpm's are up you back out the idle mixture screw until it is all the way out (removed from carburetor). Once that screw is out you empty a can of carb cleaner into that opening (without stalling out the car) You may have the hold your free hand over the throat of the carb just a bit to keep it from stalling by going lean. The goal is to use the vacuum created by the running car and the carb cleaner to pull/melt that garbage out of those tiny passages. Shut the car down. Spray carb cleaner in the tiny air passages in the throat of the carb. Make sure you hold the plastic straw tight on the tiny holes and wear safety googles. Get it in those holes good. Replace the idle mixture screw and turn it in very gently until it is seated. Back it out about 2 to 2 1/2 turns and get the car started. To set the idle screw turn it out until the car wants to stall and count the number of turns you went. Then turn it in until the car wants to stall. Count the number of turns. You want to end up in the middle of the those two counts for a good run setting.
 
Sounds like something let loose in the tank or line and clogged up the idle circuit? What carb are you running, is it a Holley 1920 or Carter BBS?

Anyway, I would change the fuel filter and try cleaning out the idle circuit on the carb. SSDan stated how to do that in a thread on here a while back. Get the car running and open the throttle enough that the car will run without the idle circuit screw being in place. Meaning once the car is running and the rpm's are up you back out the idle mixture screw until it is all the way out (removed from carburetor). Once that screw is out you empty a can of carb cleaner into that opening (without stalling out the car) You may have the hold your free hand over the throat of the carb just a bit to keep it from stalling by going lean. The goal is to use the vacuum created by the running car and the carb cleaner to pull/melt that garbage out of those tiny passages. Shut the car down. Spray carb cleaner in the tiny air passages in the throat of the carb. Make sure you hold the plastic straw tight on the tiny holes and wear safety googles. Get it in those holes good. Replace the idle mixture screw and turn it in very gently until it is seated. Back it out about 2 to 2 1/2 turns and get the car started. To set the idle screw turn it out until the car wants to stall and count the number of turns you went. Then turn it in until the car wants to stall. Count the number of turns. You want to end up in the middle of the those two counts for a good run setting.
Hmm you know what that is what I was thinking because I put some fuel treatment in right before and I didn't have that much gas in the tanks, I have a Holley two barrel on it.
 
Water in the gas,or
Mixture screws fell out,lol
haha i wish so i ended up messing with the slant and reving the crap out of it it finally started idling and starting like before, but it still has a misfire, so i did a compression test every cylinder was at 120 psi, except number 2 which was at 70psi, i did a dry and wet test and and the psi went up to 90psi, so i guess worn rings on the number 2 cylinder just my luck that motor only has about 30,000 miles on it :wtf: i just dont understand how it was not able to idle then started to idle again.
 
You should check the valve lash first, especially on that low cylinder.
Your carb may have had some debris stuck in the air bleeds or in the main wells, and the high vacuum under closed throttle engine deceleration may have pulled it out of there.
BUT......
as to that low cylinder, I am more inclined to think;
your compression test points to the valves not sealing on it.
>If the fault lies in the exhaust valve, firstly;on the intake stroke the falling piston will pull some high-pressure exhaust gasses into the cylinder, along with some fresh mixture from the intake. If the exhaust is hot enough, or still burning from an adjacent cylinder, then this inducted mixture can ignite as the piston is coming up, and the expanding gasses would attempt to force the piston back down. This energy is now subtracted from the energy going into the crank from the previous pulse of another cylinder, and so you feel it as a "miss". You can prove this by removing #2 ignition wire, and the engine smoothes out a little.
Secondly,when the fire gets lit under compression, some of the burning gasses will exit into the exhaust manifold, still burning. If there is a combustible mixture in there from another or other cylinders, and say oxygen also got in there from an exhaust leak, well you could have a bit of a pressure spike in the log every time that bad cylinder fires, which might altogether sound and feel like a missfire.
> If the fault lies in the intake valve, after the intake stroke finishes, and now on the compression stroke; hot intake charge will sneak back into the intake manifold, making the left over mixture,on ignition, a weak pulse and you feel the crank slow down. The pulse that went back into the intake will mess up the carb.But the worst is; still-burning,high-pressure, exhaust gasses could find there way into the intake manifold,igniting the fuel charge just expelled into there. When that high pressure pulse hits the carb on it's way to the atmosphere, it will draw fuel with it because the venturi doesn't care which way the air is moving thru it, to dump fuel into that stream. So now you have a mixture of hot exhaust gasses and an enriched charge sitting in the filter house, getting ready to be pulled in by the following 5 cylinders. Is it any wonder the engine doesn't want to idle?
>But suppose that intake valve just had a small piece of carbon stuck between it and the seat, and the valve spring just couldn't crush it. And suppose /6-64 comes along and stabs the throttle a few times and blasts it outta there; suddenly all the monkey business, or most of it, stops, and the engine gets back to business almost as usual.
This is a very likely scenario that has probably been going on since the beginning of the internal combustion age. It used to be more common before EFI. Crappy gas, crappy oils, and crappy engines of yesteryear would combine in a tired engine, and the recipe was ripe.Many years ago we used to take our cars out for a high-speed run, every so often, to clean the carbon out. ( I told a cop that one time, but I got the ticket anyway)
So what to do about it?
Well the first thing I would do is a LeakDown test to prove that this is what's happening and to prove which valve exactly it is. Then I would pull the valve cover and put the involved piston at TDC-compression and check/record the valve lash. If both valves have more than zero lash, then I would make a cursory check of the valve springs to make sure none is broken, and that there is at least some seat-pressure.
Then I would back up the crank to pull that piston back down on the compression stroke at least a half an inch or more. Then I would bop that bad valve about 866 times with the butt-end of a hammer and listen for a change in the sound it makes, when the valve hits the seat.To speed this up,I do this at TDC with the LD tester injecting air; then it becomes obvious if the bopping is working, as the hissing stops simultaneously with a new sound as the valve slams into the seat.I have to warn you tho, that the piston is right there so you have to kindof know what you are doing so you don't slam the valve into it and bend her....... cuz then you are for sure gonna need a valve job.
OK so after the valve is again seating, you do a new valve lash test, and an adjustment if required. And then since the cover is off, you might as well do the rest. And repeat the LD test to note the change, and a new compression test on that cylinder if you are so inclined.
No not 866 times !! lol, if the sound never changes, and the LD test shows little if any improvement, then we are too late the valve is burned, and the valve-job is the only known cure. Usually a half dozen bops will prove it one way or another.
> There is a shortcut that sometimes works, and that is a chemical dose thru the carb at a fast idle. You can find these products at your jobber.

Good luck
 
Last edited:
You should check the valve lash first, especially on that low cylinder.
Your carb may have had some debris stuck in the air bleeds or in the main wells, and the high vacuum under closed throttle engine deceleration may have pulled it out of there.
BUT......
as to that low cylinder, I am more inclined to think;
your compression test points to the valves not sealing on it.
>If the fault lies in the exhaust valve, firstly;on the intake stroke the falling piston will pull some high-pressure exhaust gasses into the cylinder, along with some fresh mixture from the intake. If the exhaust is hot enough, or still burning from an adjacent cylinder, then this inducted mixture can ignite as the piston is coming up, and the expanding gasses would attempt to force the piston back down. This energy is now subtracted from the energy going into the crank from the previous pulse of another cylinder, and so you feel it as a "miss". You can prove this by removing #2 ignition wire, and the engine smoothes out a little.
Secondly,when the fire gets lit under compression, some of the burning gasses will exit into the exhaust manifold, still burning. If there is a combustible mixture in there from another or other cylinders, and say oxygen also got in there from an exhaust leak, well you could have a bit of a pressure spike in the log every time that bad cylinder fires, which might altogether sound and feel like a missfire.
> If the fault lies in the intake valve, after the intake stroke finishes, and now on the compression stroke; hot intake charge will sneak back into the intake manifold, making the left over mixture,on ignition, a weak pulse and you feel the crank slow down. The pulse that went back into the intake will mess up the carb.But the worst is; still-burning,high-pressure, exhaust gasses could find there way into the intake manifold,igniting the fuel charge just expelled into there. When that high pressure pulse hits the carb on it's way to the atmosphere, it will draw fuel with it because the venturi doesn't care which way the air is moving thru it, to dump fuel into that stream. So now you have a mixture of hot exhaust gasses and an enriched charge sitting in the filter house, getting ready to be pulled in by the following 5 cylinders. Is it any wonder the engine doesn't want to idle?
>But suppose that intake valve just had a small piece of carbon stuck between it and the seat, and the valve spring just couldn't crush it. And suppose /6-64 comes along and stabs the throttle a few times and blasts it outta there; suddenly all the monkey business, or most of it, stops, and the engine gets back to business almost as usual.
This is a very likely scenario that has probably been going on since the beginning of the internal combustion age. It used to be more common before EFI. Crappy gas, crappy oils, and crappy engines of yesteryear would combine in a tired engine, and the recipe was ripe.Many years ago we used to take our cars out for a high-speed run, every so often, to clean the carbon out. ( I told a cop that one time, but I got the ticket anyway)
So what to do about it?
Well the first thing I would do is a LeakDown test to prove that this is what's happening and to prove which valve exactly it is. Then I would pull the valve cover and put the involved piston at TDC-compression and check/record the valve lash. If both valves have more than zero lash, then I would make a cursory check of the valve springs to make sure none is broken, and that there is at least some seat-pressure.
Then I would back up the crank to pull that piston back down on the compression stroke at least a half an inch or more. Then I would bop that bad valve about 866 times with the butt-end of a hammer and listen for a change in the sound it makes, when the valve hits the seat.To speed this up,I do this at TDC with the LD tester injecting air; then it becomes obvious if the bopping is working, as the hissing stops simultaneously with a new sound as the valve slams into the seat.I have to warn you tho, that the piston is right there so you have to kindof know what you are doing so you don't slam the valve into it and bend her....... cuz then you are for sure gonna need a valve job.
OK so after the valve is again seating, you do a new valve lash test, and an adjustment if required. And then since the cover is off, you might as well do the rest. And repeat the LD test to note the change, and a new compression test on that cylinder if you are so inclined.
No not 866 times !! lol, if the sound never changes, and the LD test shows little if any improvement, then we are too late the valve is burned, and the valve-job is the only known cure. Usually a half dozen bops will prove it one way or another.
> There is a shortcut that sometimes works, and that is a chemical dose thru the carb at a fast idle. You can find these products at your jobber.

Good luck
hmm but i did a wet and dry test on the cylinder doesnt that tell that the rings are bad? ill check my valve lash right now
 
if your lash is out, your compression test will not be accurate. if you Marvel that cylinder, pull the plugs and get it to mid stroke, pour the mystery oil in there and let it sit overnight. check in morning by hand cycling the crank with the belt and force the oil out, or note that none came out, do another compression test with plugs out and see if it changed. 30K on rings is nothing. cold lash is slightly larger than hot lash so maybe give it +.002 on a cold lash and then check again while hot. It can handle a loose lash much better than a tight lash.
 
hmm but i did a wet and dry test on the cylinder doesnt that tell that the rings are bad? ill check my valve lash right now
No;and yes. Per post #5, you had a 20psi increase in pressure meaning the oil did almost nothing; that points to the valves, that the oil could not get to, as the major loss of pressure.
Furthermore; I have never seen an engine that lost 50psi compression in just one cylinder, due to that cylinder having worn out rings, and the 5 other sets not matchingly worn. Can't say it never happens, I've just never seen it,lol.

Hyup .013/.023 at ~70*F
and make sure the feelers you are using are no wider than the valve stems.
 
Last edited:
No;and yes. Per post #5, you had a 20psi increase in pressure meaning the oil did almost nothing; that points to the valves, that the oil could not get to, as the major loss of pressure.
Furthermore; I have never seen an engine that lost 50psi compression in just one cylinder, due to that cylinder having worn out rings, and the 5 other sets not matchingly worn. Can't say it never happens, I've just never seen it,lol.

Hyup .013/.023 at ~70*F
and make sure the feelers you are using are no wider than the valve stems.
hm so should i be looking at the exhaust and intake valve seals on the #2 Piston? for the loss of compression
 
If you're talking about the oil seals, no...they will have no impact on compression.

If you're talking about the valve face sealing against the valve seat, then yes.
 
If you're talking about the oil seals, no...they will have no impact on compression.

If you're talking about the valve face sealing against the valve seat, then yes.
okay ill pull the head in a couple days, i did notice white smoke after coming to a stop so hopefully it is the valves just having crude in it.
 
if your lash is out, your compression test will not be accurate. if you Marvel that cylinder, pull the plugs and get it to mid stroke, pour the mystery oil in there and let it sit overnight. check in morning by hand cycling the crank with the belt and force the oil out, or note that none came out, do another compression test with plugs out and see if it changed. 30K on rings is nothing. cold lash is slightly larger than hot lash so maybe give it +.002 on a cold lash and then check again while hot. It can handle a loose lash much better than a tight lash.
checked the lash and it was good, starting to think maybe it is an issue with the valves
 
well, you could set cylinder to TDC and dribble some mystery oil in the intake port if you pull the intake and see if it drains..same goes with the exhaust port. If the lash is all correct, that tells you the valves are not hanging up on anything, to an extent. You could also fill both ports with oil, and pressurize the cylinder an look for some bubbles in the ports to point at a burned valve. same goes with the coolant in the radiator for a head gasket. The air has to go somewhere besides past the rings. Once the intake/exhaust is removed as a unit, the head is only 16 more bolts and 70 lbs away.
 
so i pulled off the manifolds and on the nuber 2 cylinder the exhaust valve is white and looks to be cracking or spliting all the way down, this is the cylinder which only had 70 psi and the rest had a solid 120. heres a picture but it doesnt look that good.
444.jpg
 
Bah, so you got a bad valve..not the end of the world. Pull head and valve, replace and rebuild. Call it a learning experience. Check the seat too. If the valve wasnt turning, the burn may have hit the seat, and the lifter may be concave. Pull that one too and look at its base. It should be slightly convex or flat. If its concave like a petri dish, thats no good.
 
Bah, so you got a bad valve..not the end of the world. Pull head and valve, replace and rebuild. Call it a learning experience. Check the seat too. If the valve wasnt turning, the burn may have hit the seat, and the lifter may be concave. Pull that one too and look at its base. It should be slightly convex or flat. If its concave like a petri dish, thats no good.

yeah i know im just glad i dont have to pull the motor, i already pulled the heads today going to continue tomo after work, i see this as a blessing in disguise so i can fix the broken stud on the exhaust at the end, change out the lifters due to some rattling from a not so good break in, calculate my actual CR so i can figure our how to get to 9:1 and where i currently stand, and replace that valve
 
getting 9:1 is going to take about a .100 head cut. But your measurements int here will dictate that. Pushrods should accept a .100 cut. Do you have a dial indicator? Check the lifts of the lobes while your in there. If #2E burned, you may have a bad lobe.
 
getting 9:1 is going to take about a .100 head cut. But your measurements int here will dictate that. Pushrods should accept a .100 cut. Do you have a dial indicator? Check the lifts of the lobes while your in there. If #2E burned, you may have a bad lobe.
after removing the exhaust valve it is the valve guide that split in half, so im sure the camshaft is okay because all the lifters looked good upon removal. how does a valve guide start splitting, and this is why i was having a misfire?
 
There is no seperate valve guide in a 6 OEM were cast in! Unless its already been 'guided' by replacement guides that were drilled, reemed and pressed in. If yours is split, I suppose you could drift it out with a punch and then have a new one pressed in, or heat the head, ice the guide and drive it in yourself. shoot us a pic of the split guide. Have no clue how it would split as there is no room for it to split unless it seized up on the valve, pushed out and started cycling with it...? That would be a pretty cheezy guide.
 
Last edited:
There is no seperate valve guide in a 6 OEM were cast in! Unless its already been 'guided' by replacement guides that were drilled, reemed and pressed in. If yours is split, I suppose you could drift it out with a punch and then have a new one pressed in, or heat the head, ice the guide and drive it in yourself. shoot us a pic of the split guide. Have no clue how it would split as there is no room for it to split unless it seized up on the valve, pushed out and started cycling with it...? That would be a pretty cheezy guide.
i have a 79 block with the peanut head, couldnt take a picture i yanked part of it out already and left the rest alone before i would cause damage, the guide was made of brass. going to take it to the machine shop tomo after work,well see what the head master has to say once he sees it.
 
I thought I read that you had hydros but your name was 64. Makes sense as they may have gone to guides in the later heads. They should be able to drive a new one in and I think they may even have oversized guides as well as oversized valve guides. My 82 Mazda FSM shows driving them in with a hammer and a drift tool.
 
yeah i have a 64 dart but the motor was tired, and i picked up a rebuilt 225 off craigslist for 200.00 bucks with adjustable rocker arms and a clifford 264 cam and tossed it in with the 4 speed. Maybe you have seen me around im in the san gabriel valley sometimes head towards Irvine baby blue dart painted with a roller lol. The block is a 1979 cast crank. Thanks a million you guys really helped me out
 
have you color sanded it yet? I bet it'll turn out great!:welcome:
 
-
Back
Top