Something I’ve been wondering about for years….

[ProjectBazza]

I like “sleepers”. Always have, always will.

But what gives a lot of them away is the excessive negative offset when the rear wheels are widened…..

So as a guy who’s hoping to retire soon, has been “building” a sleeper in his head for quite some time, and is seriously considering building one once I do retire, I’d really like to know: When widening the rear wheels for a sleeper-build, why don’t people make them with positive offset, thus tucking the majority of the tire inside the car, and thus leaving a more stock-appearing exterior? Think about it: Styled steel wheels that look stock on the outside, but are 12” or so wide with all of the offset (and “meat”) completely hidden!

Why isn’t this done now? Is it because of the forces on the wheel bearings? Or the width of the suspension? Or…..???

Jim

 

[33IMP]

It's usually because of limited room to the inside, due to inner wheel tub interference, or springs.
I'm like you, I like the wide tire more to the inside, but if you mini tub, or move the springs a bunch, the sleeper vibe goes away.
And usually it isn't necessarily the tire width that gives the game away, it's the tires themselves. Drag radials do not promote a sleeper look.
I have a couple pairs of wheels exactly as you describe, 15x 10 or 10 1/2, with about 7" of backspace. They won't fit anything without the springs being moved.
Want my idea for a sleeper tire? Diamondback whitewalls on a decent radial (200 rating?) with the mar(ings removed, covered with full wheel covers.
I can tell you about the baddest sleeper I ever saw if you like.

 

[str12-340]

When buying new ralleye wheels for my builds I have twice bought 6" wheels for the front (now the standard repop configuration) and then bought 7" rims for the back with all the extra width on the inside. Then I picked 205-70- 14s for the front and 245-60-14s for the back so the sidewall height is the same. From the side they look identical and look like the stock wheels. I had to use the 3/4 inch offset spring kit to make it fit. On a really serious sleeper, you could move the springs into the frame (see USCT kit) and put even more wheel on the inside.

 

[Murray]

People narrow the rear end and go inward. Just more work to do that.

 

[WV64Signet]

It's usually because of limited room to the inside, due to inner wheel tub interference, or springs.
I'm like you, I like the wide tire more to the inside, but if you mini tub, or move the springs a bunch, the sleeper vibe goes away.
And usually it isn't necessarily the tire width that gives the game away, it's the tires themselves. Drag radials do not promote a sleeper look.
I have a couple pairs of wheels exactly as you describe, 15x 10 or 10 1/2, with about 7" of backspace. They won't fit anything without the springs being moved.
Want my idea for a sleeper tire? Diamondback whitewalls on a decent radial (200 rating?) with the mar(ings removed, covered with full wheel covers.
I can tell you about the baddest sleeper I ever saw if you like.

 

[go-fish]

@ProjectBazza Depends on what you’re working on. 8.25 is about an inch wider than an 8.75 or just go with a wider B-body rearend and have Weldcraft widen skinny wheels or move the centers outboard on some 8 inch wheels.

 

[33IMP]

LA fireman with a 32 Ford that was lots faster than it looked (steel wheels and hubcaps.
Built a white Jag XJ6 four door. Still had stock skinny wheels and hard tires, 1 1/2" stock tailpipes (prominent). Quiet.
Had an intercooled twin turbo stroker LS under the flat hood with mufflers that dumped under the car. Would run a mid/high sixes eighth mile, could have been faster with a decent rear and tire, but if I remember he was still using the Jag independent. Decent tires would have killed it.

 

[Professor Fate]

You want a sleeper?
I'm with 33IMP - Whitewalls!
If you want a true sleeper, don't get carried away with tire size. That always gives things away.
Remember, F.A.S.T. racers are going sub-10s on 70 series bias-plies. Get the car to hook, keep the rumble mild, and the game's in the bag.

 

[Kendog 170]

MOVING WHEELWELLS 101

 

[ProjectBazza]

It's usually because of limited room to the inside, due to inner wheel tub interference, or springs.
I'm like you, I like the wide tire more to the inside, but if you mini tub, or move the springs a bunch, the sleeper vibe goes away.
And usually it isn't necessarily the tire width that gives the game away, it's the tires themselves. Drag radials do not promote a sleeper look.
I have a couple pairs of wheels exactly as you describe, 15x 10 or 10 1/2, with about 7" of backspace. They won't fit anything without the springs being moved.
Want my idea for a sleeper tire? Diamondback whitewalls on a decent radial (200 rating?) with the mar(ings removed, covered with full wheel covers.
I can tell you about the baddest sleeper I ever saw if you like.

I agree that there's a fine line between being successful at it (stuffing huge tires under the car), and "giving it all away", and I assume that would vary based on the car (height, wheel openings, etc). But the "deep dish" steelies I've seen on some (so-called) "sleepers" at car shows just seems so....wrong to me. Like, "Hey! Look at my car...but pay no attention to those funny looking rear wheels." Always seems like a contradiction to me, or else the builder couldn't make up his mind.

I was thinking about this a little bit last night, and I seem to recall a generation (or two) before me (I'm 60) used "reversed" chrome wheels on their hot rods. I think that's the same idea, but I'm not sure...

Anyway, looking back on cars from my past, the funnest ones were also the most unassuming, with nothing (or almost nothing) obvious that gave away their potential, and I think that's what I'd like to do again once I retire. Take a big ol' honkin V8, stuff it into something unexpected ("boring", perhaps?), and just go out and have fun with it! Of course surprising the hell outta unsuspecting people (aka, other drivers) is also a huge "plus"...

 

[ProjectBazza]

When buying new ralleye wheels for my builds I have twice bought 6" wheels for the front (now the standard repop configuration) and then bought 7" rims for the back with all the extra width on the inside. Then I picked 205-70- 14s for the front and 245-60-14s for the back so the sidewall height is the same. From the side they look identical and look like the stock wheels. I had to use the 3/4 inch offset spring kit to make it fit. On a really serious sleeper, you could move the springs into the frame (see USCT kit) and put even more wheel on the inside.

Yeah, I like it! Stuff the "extra" tire inside, and keep the side view as original as possible. Exactly what I think I'd like to accomplish.

 

[ProjectBazza]

@ProjectBazza Depends on what you’re working on. 8.25 is about an inch wider than an 8.75 or just go with a wider B-body rearend and have Weldcraft widen skinny wheels or move the centers outboard on some 8 inch wheels.

I'm not sure yet exactly what this build is going to be. I've had a few traditional muscle cars over the years, and while I'll probably get another one, they're almost like belly buttons (everybody has one), and dang near anything that can be done to them, has been done.

But there are guys on here throwing 440's into 4 door Darts (I'm generalizing here), and that's something you don't see every day out on the street, and is the general idea of where I'm leaning right now.

 

[ProjectBazza]

LA fireman with a 32 Ford that was lots faster than it looked (steel wheels and hubcaps.
Built a white Jag XJ6 four door. Still had stock skinny wheels and hard tires, 1 1/2" stock tailpipes (prominent). Quiet.
Had an intercooled twin turbo stroker LS under the flat hood with mufflers that dumped under the car. Would run a mid/high sixes eighth mile, could have been faster with a decent rear and tire, but if I remember he was still using the Jag independent. Decent tires would have killed it.

One of the cars I'd like to buy, just to play around with, is a Model A. But I'd keep is as bone-stock as possible (or practical), as like you say, putting wider tires on it will just "kill it" (or give it away).

 

[jeff alder]

Yeah, I like it! Stuff the "extra" tire inside, and keep the side view as original as possible. Exactly what I think I'd like to accomplish.

Use a convertible...It always throws the competition off...and ixnay on the hoodscoop a.

 

[ProjectBazza]

You want a sleeper?
I'm with 33IMP - Whitewalls!
If you want a true sleeper, don't get carried away with tire size. That always gives things away.
Remember, F.A.S.T. racers are going sub-10s on 70 series bias-plies. Get the car to hook, keep the rumble mild, and the game's in the bag.

Yup! Soemthign like this right here^^^^^^

Wanna build something stock looking, something along the lines of the F.A.S.T cars, but I don't wanna be tied down to a certain engine, drivetrain, or rear wheel width.

 

[ProjectBazza]

MOVING WHEELWELLS 101

That's DEFINITELY in my plans!

Thanks!

 

[ProjectBazza]

Use a convertible...It always throws the competition off...and ixnay on the hoodscoop a.

I LIKE it! Nice fat tires in the back, skinnies up front, that big wedge motor with 3" pipes, and what I think are subframe connectors (not sure what the underside of a Coronet is supposed to look like)! Only thing I'd do different is lose the floor mounted aftermarket shifter, as it just stands out like a sore thumb, in my opinion.

 

[jeff alder]

This convertible was close to me, so I put a bid in on it on the EBAY auction. I ended up being high bidder but they wouldn't sell it to me because the reserve was not met. This car was bad to the bone

 

[ProjectBazza]

This convertible was close to me, so I put a bid in on it on the EBAY auction. I ended up being high bidder but they wouldn't sell it to me because the reserve was not met. This car was bad to the bone

That's a beautiful car! Do you have the sellers personal contact info? I know eBay frowns upon doing such things as what I'm thinkin' about right now, but they (eBay) have enough money, and to paraphrase an old Vegas saying: What's done between you and the seller, stays between you and the seller.

 

[Kendog 170]

I bought a 74 Plymouth Vaillant brougham off my buddy that back then was my Mopar Guru. It was his dad's car. He blew the 904 trans and got a price of $1500. to repair. He said dad, give me the $1500 and I'll fix her up. He put a cam, 4 barrel intake and carb (318 Eng.), converted to dual exhaust and had the tailpipes turned down just before the rear bumper. Put a higher stall converter and 727 trans. with a shift kit that he already had in it. Also changed rearend gears to what I don't remember. I bought it when his dad got too old to drive for my wife. She had no idea I would go out and race around with it. Beat a lot of unsuspecting cars. It wasn't the fastest out there but that thing did pretty dam good. It looked similar to the pic below but had factory hubcaps. It was nice because you didn't have to worry about people messing with a granny style car.

 

[go-fish]

How about this, you want Chase down power. You don’t want a big block that will blow the tires off at the starting line, do you want a car that will come from behind. The Way you build the engine and gear the car is probably more impactful than the size of the rear tires. If you find a skinny tire with 200 tread wear, that would be better than say, a BFGoodrich radial T/a in a 295 mm.
Doing something like rear mounted turbos, think STS, would allow for slow spool and you would have the power to come from behind and pass.
It might allow you to have a quieter exhaust.

 

[jeff alder]

That's a beautiful car! Do you have the sellers personal contact info? I know eBay frowns upon doing such things as what I'm thinkin' about right now, but they (eBay) have enough money, and to paraphrase an old Vegas saying: What's done between you and the seller, stays between you and the seller.

It was the dealer. This was about 3 years ago. We spoke on the phone a couple of times after the auction ended but could not settle on a price. I didn't even know it actually sold until I looked it up as the tires were in tune with your post. The rest of the car was just a bonus. I would have loved to have it. In person it shows quire well.

 

[ProjectBazza]

How about this, you want Chase down power. You don’t want a big block that will blow the tires off at the starting line, do you want a car that will come from behind. The Way you build the engine and gear the car is probably more impactful than the size of the rear tires. If you find a skinny tire with 200 tread wear, that would be better than say, a BFGoodrich radial T/a in a 295 mm.
Doing something like rear mounted turbos, think STS, would allow for slow spool and you would have the power to come from behind and pass.
It might allow you to have a quieter exhaust.

I have to admit that other than considering using a SB engine with turbos (which I have no experience with), I had never given much thought with regards to gearing. My thought process has always been "old school", I guess, and more (CID) is better.

You've given me something to think about, thank you!

 

[Kendog 170]

I've got a 1974 360 LA motor I would love to build and put in an unsuspecting a-body.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Something I've wondered for years......why do good lookin blonde headed women dye their roots brown?