mopardude318
Well-Known Member
tell it like it is joe!
Holy S#!t batman! just install the dang things!! heres how i did mine, put the car on jackstands, (there was no engine or tranny, and no suspension, i just leveled it on flat ground.
Sub Frame connector conundrum
- Thread starter 4mulaSvaliant
- Start date
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tell it like it is joe!
Holy S#!t batman! just install the dang things!! heres how i did mine, put the car on jackstands, (there was no engine or tranny, and no suspension, i just leveled it on flat ground.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
some good looking welds right there..
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Not over thinking at all here. And really, just starting it for discussion. I know what I will be doing. It is really just a matter of showing a few that may NOT have put enough thought into what they are doing.
Here is a quick depiction (exagerated to show better) of what happens if you dont tie it to the floor.
Here is a quick depiction (exagerated to show better) of what happens if you dont tie it to the floor.
halfaed
Well-Known Member
I went through the floor with all of the mopars I have done, including my 2 darts and 2 B bodies.
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Also...... Another point thats valid here. Because a lot of the guys adding subframe connectors are doing it for performance whether it be at the drags or auto cross, wieght is a key factor. So why add something that does only a little for performance and adds more wieght?
If Im going to add it, I want it to serve a purpose.
Just a discussion guys.... Dont get all bent here! LOL
If Im going to add it, I want it to serve a purpose.
Just a discussion guys.... Dont get all bent here! LOL
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Very nice job on those up there!!!
Joe Dokes
Well-Known Member
Mopardude318 is the winner.
The key problem with simply using 2" X 2" or 2" X 3" box tubing is that it doesn't tie into the floor of the car.
The key problem with most laser cut sub frame connectors is that they don't form a complete box, but rely on the floor to form the top of the boxed frame. The floor of the car is only 18 gauge material, far thinner than 1/8" rectangular tubing used by most sub frame connectors. Thus, while you gain the benefit of tying the floor into the connector, you loose the additional thickness of material, as a result the "box" is thinner on the top and will flex more easily.
Mopar dude solves both of these problems, buy using 3" X 3" tubing, he gains three things.
1. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing is stiffer and stronger than either 2" X 2" or 2" X 3"
2. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing is a complete boxed structure and is thus stronger material open on one side.
3. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing protrudes through the floor allowing it to be fully integrated into the floor structure.
Regards,
Joe Dokes
The key problem with simply using 2" X 2" or 2" X 3" box tubing is that it doesn't tie into the floor of the car.
The key problem with most laser cut sub frame connectors is that they don't form a complete box, but rely on the floor to form the top of the boxed frame. The floor of the car is only 18 gauge material, far thinner than 1/8" rectangular tubing used by most sub frame connectors. Thus, while you gain the benefit of tying the floor into the connector, you loose the additional thickness of material, as a result the "box" is thinner on the top and will flex more easily.
Mopar dude solves both of these problems, buy using 3" X 3" tubing, he gains three things.
1. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing is stiffer and stronger than either 2" X 2" or 2" X 3"
2. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing is a complete boxed structure and is thus stronger material open on one side.
3. 3" X 3" X 1/8" tubing protrudes through the floor allowing it to be fully integrated into the floor structure.
Regards,
Joe Dokes
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
I like the ones that weld to or through the floor.
Got a set of UScartools to put on my Dart. Not that it needs tem as it is just my driver with street tires. I do take it to the track every now and then so I thought I would put a set on.
My Duster is going to be a drag car with a 12 point cage so I put a set of 2X3's in that go up through the floor. Also is a good place to land the down bars that come off the main hoop.
Got a set of UScartools to put on my Dart. Not that it needs tem as it is just my driver with street tires. I do take it to the track every now and then so I thought I would put a set on.
My Duster is going to be a drag car with a 12 point cage so I put a set of 2X3's in that go up through the floor. Also is a good place to land the down bars that come off the main hoop.
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
Purple Haze
Well-Known Member
Tying the front and rear frame rails together offers some more to the vehicle rigidity. Welding those to the floor is better, but what really stiffens a chassis is a roll cage 10 point minimum 12 best.
And what about the giant boxed structure that supports the floor (Sheer Plane)? The floor doesn't act in a vacuum here, it has other supporting structure that are directly and indirectly attached to it.
If you think that the addition of connectors which do not incorporate the floor are not sufficient or don't stop rotational twist, you haven't installed a set and jacked up the car from a corner. With every addition there are sometimes drawbacks to those additions, floor pan tearing at weld points.
Like Joe said, if you are so concerned with rotational forces, put a cage in the car and tie it end to end... anything short of that is patchwork engineering.
IMO, You guys are over-thinking this.
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
Ya I would think any of them will be fine till it is time to move up to a full tube frame. Then nothing is welded to the floor. LOL
mopardude318
Well-Known Member
Joe, I used 2x3x.120" wall mild steel. not 3x3, i thought about it, but i think it would be overkill...once you have a piece of 3x3 in your hand, it just feels massive... lol
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
You are exactly correct! I'm not saying the sub frame connectors are the only structure!
Obviously there are many more parts to the uni-body that tie the car together!
All the little impressions, divots, bends, rolled edges and beads are all a part of the structure and the reason they are there is to stiffen the panels. I'm sure you all know this.
As for the Roll Cages yes of course that is one of the best solutions guys. Wasn't the point of the thread, but yes that's pretty much a given. ALSO IN A WHOLE OTHER REALM WHEN IT COMES TO BUILDING MOST OF THE PROJECTS HERE.
As for tearing of the floor near welds....Well at that point chances are pretty good you need more than sub frame connectors, because you have some pretty decent power!
Torque Boxes are a good example of what we are trying to accomplish as well. They triangulate / box the frame to the structure in the rocker area as well as the firewall takes up some of thee stress.
Another example is old "C-channel" style frames. I have boxed many frames... Why........? Because it seriously helps strengthen the frame by adding that "wall" to the C and closing it up.
As a matter of fact thats a decent example as well..
If you welded a tube parallel to an old frame, but only welded that tube to the frame at the front and rear of the car and spaced it 1/2" away from the inside of the frame, it would not help in the slightest bit.
Not quite sure why everyone has to get all worked up and mention that people are over thinking things so much. Jeez guys.
This is a discussion FORUM.
I have been away from the site for a while. Has it gotten so bad around here that we cant have a decent discussion with out getting fed up any more?
Stay cool daddy-O :glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2::glasses2:
You mean you would of had to get bigger torsion bars to support your frame connectors? :blob:
mopardude318
Well-Known Member
haha yea. u got it! lol
4mulaSvaliant, i'm not mad. not at all. they way i did mine was because i thought if it went through the floor, it would be a little more rigid as well.
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
On another note................. I bet some of you would be very surprised how strong even 16ga. sheet metal is, when bent the right way.
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Nah mopardude yours IMO are spot on man!!!
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
By the way Mopardude, what did you do (if you are that far) about the carpet going over the tube? Did you build a false floor to bring it level across the floor or? Just leave it?
Just wondering.
Just wondering.
All the Camaros I have done have had the connectors thru the floor. Strangely, when I did my Val, I just connected the front and the rear. 2X2 steel tubing. I'm gonna redo it one of these days, but at the time I had already put new carpet in and well......
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't really need to go through the floor either. My point is it should be welded to the floor in some manner.
I like the signiture Quote Rev!
I like the signiture Quote Rev!
I got to agree with you on your point. How significantly stiffer it gets by attatching to the floor could be debated to the Nth degree. I prefer to do it that way and it works for me. (Or at least what's left of the pieces of my mind).
Thanks on the quote, seems to explain more than I can ever say.
4mulaSvaliant
Well-Known Member
Yeah I have to agree! I love checking out some good welding and fab skills. I have a bit more than a few frames under my belt at this point. Several Full floor replacements (working on a K-5 Blazer currently) and many random custom fab jobs.
Here is a picture of a 69 Bronco frame that we laser cut the side walls and then mace 2 "c" channel pcs to go in between them. Welded it all up, and put the entire rear of the Bronco back together. Turned out WAY nice!!
You can see the Shock mount here as well.
Here is a picture of a 69 Bronco frame that we laser cut the side walls and then mace 2 "c" channel pcs to go in between them. Welded it all up, and put the entire rear of the Bronco back together. Turned out WAY nice!!
You can see the Shock mount here as well.
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