33IMP
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm 250 miles away at the moment, but if I can find this thread in a week or two, I'll post what you asked for. I do know off the top of my head that it is rated SD.
Summit Racing oil
- Thread starter 70Duster340
- Start date
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Moparpuller
Well-Known Member
Driven 10w30 and cenpeco 10w30 super racing oil
If you remember, I'd appreciate it. It would help satisfy my curiosity. I'd be able to know that the updated spec would have been after a specific date.
The date code would probably resemble this format. It could be on the bottle or the box. They were charged later, but the SD rated stuff was before that.
diymirage
HP@idle > hondaHP@redline
Sounds like a Spanish curse word
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
Well here's another topic for discussion. I see that VR1 is made in both conventional and synthetic. Which is best?
33IMP
Well-Known Member
Just my opinion, for what it's worth... (nothing!)
I would use the synthetic in a late model performance car (scat pack, hellcat) but I would use conventional in a classic, especially with a flat tappet camshaft.
I bought oil every time it was on sale.... till I put it all in one place, and realized how much I had. I use diesel oil in the diesels, conventional in the old cars, full synthetic In the new hotrod, and racing oil in the race cars.
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
The VR1 synthetic has the ZDDP in it, just like the conventional oil. So, why do you recommend conventional oil? just trying to learn as much as possible.
Scody21
Just send it
Don’t know why this is so hard. Here’s some good videos about oil that will help with your questions.
https://youtu.be/oqvpc0IqaDo
https://youtu.be/99fIZKVvkEc
There is a ton of different brands of oil on the market, so use what you want to use and send it. We have all said our piece, do do you. Run the best oil you can afford, as you most likely have a ton of money in your motor and want to protect it for the one oil change a year. It’s the old adage, 100 dollar helmet for a 100 dollar head.
This is what I run in my 340’s and we use in the vintage Formula 1 Cosworth DFV motors my brother builds that cost more than an A body for a rebuild.
Brad Penn 009-7150 10W-30 Partial Synthetic Racing Oil - 1 Quart, (Case of 12) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPGKJ8/?tag=fabo03-20
So yeah, you do you.
https://youtu.be/oqvpc0IqaDo
https://youtu.be/99fIZKVvkEc
There is a ton of different brands of oil on the market, so use what you want to use and send it. We have all said our piece, do do you. Run the best oil you can afford, as you most likely have a ton of money in your motor and want to protect it for the one oil change a year. It’s the old adage, 100 dollar helmet for a 100 dollar head.
This is what I run in my 340’s and we use in the vintage Formula 1 Cosworth DFV motors my brother builds that cost more than an A body for a rebuild.
Brad Penn 009-7150 10W-30 Partial Synthetic Racing Oil - 1 Quart, (Case of 12) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPGKJ8/?tag=fabo03-20
So yeah, you do you.
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
First, let me thank you for the videos. I have already watched some videos, as well as some research on the internet.
Next, I am assuming that you forwarded the videos to assist in educating me. Well, when I attended school, we were expected to ask questions, which is why I am asking questions here on this forum. No place better to go and get educated than on a website that's specific to the engine I am working on. Been a member here for quite a while now, and this is the first time I've received any attitude for trying to gain some knowledge, regardless of the topic. I didn't say it was "so hard". Don't tell me you're a member here and have never asked a question before. So, with all due respect, don't talk down to me. If something bothers you about the post or the questions, that's on you.
In the future, if I ask questions or try to help someone here and that bothers you, move on. This has seemingly always been a hot topic, as the disclaimer at the beginning of the post elaborated to. So far it's been very civil and informative, until now. I'm picking the brains of who I consider experts, since they all have Mopar in their blood. I want to have the same expertise and knowledge. What better way to get it than ask?
33IMP
Well-Known Member
I avoid synthetic if possible. Maybe it's the old "synthetic causes oil leaks in older engine gaskets", or the fact that a friend who owned a rearend shop warranteed synthetic in rearends for six seconds or six inches, whichever came first.
Maybe it's the fact it's more expensive for no perceived benefit (to me).
I use it in the Camaro ss cause it's required. I have found no need for it elsewhere.
I’ve used this oil for well over 40 years and several name changes. I did a search on this a few months ago and bought a couple cases. I’m sure glad I grabbed it before the price went up.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The “synthetic cause oil leaks” has been wrong since at least the late 1980’s. There may be some cheap(r) synthetics that attack oil seals but none of the quality oils (oils that you can’t buy off the shelf at the local parts stores and are actually synthetics) attack oil seals.
To find the value in synthetics you have to test them. And that is incredibly expensive to do.
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
Don't mean to be ignorant, but the oil at parts stores isn't good? Even the name brands?
Go down to the parts store and get some VR1 and be done with it.
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
I'm just asking if the oil at the parts stores is not as good as the oil purchased elsewhere. I know that Walmart stuff is made separately, and of lesser quality (name brand stuff, such as tires).
Scody21
Just send it
Oil is like coffee, there’s Starbucks, Dunkin', mid sized like Peets, Dutch brothers, and then the local corner coffee shop. So There’s the big players like Mobile, Pennzoil, Castrol and you name it that have a ton of money and can buy a ton of ad space for people to buy their products based on name alone. Then you have the mid sized oil companies, like Red Line (which is now owned by Phillips Conaco, AKA 76) Amzoil, Lucas, Royal purple etc, then you have the boutique oil companies like Gibbs aka “Driven”, Penn Grade was Brad Penn, Troquo, Swepco, and others that let their products speak from them selves. These companies makes oils for specialized applications and are of a higher quality than the name brands you see at the parts stores.
The name brands are the basic bitches used for everyday street **** boxes that are disposable, ever been you a junk yard? The store brand oils are co-packed by the large oil companies to a formula that was worked on the modern cars and a price point that the store can make a good margin on. The new cars rolling of the line have a recommendation of using VR1 for instance as the oil company can sell more of that oil and the car maker will get a kick back. It’s as simple. It’s all based on money. So that said, when you have pro racing teams most of the pro drag teams have sponsors, either money for name placement or product for use in said car (like Justice Brothers) vintage racers and sportsman racers are for the most part self funded and buy the quality products that will make their machines last. So this leaves you with, expensive boutique, kinda expensive mid-grade, slightly expensive basic ***** name brand and cheap ***** store brand.
It’s funny, I use all levels, Penn Grade in my built 340, Red Line in my girls Subaru, Castrol high mileage in my 02 Ram 5.9 mag, and cheap store oil in my 04 Colorado.
so it come down to application of oil for which one to pick.
so pick your poison and motor on.
And like I said before, my brother uses Penn Grade in the Cosworth DFV’s he builds…
The name brands are the basic bitches used for everyday street **** boxes that are disposable, ever been you a junk yard? The store brand oils are co-packed by the large oil companies to a formula that was worked on the modern cars and a price point that the store can make a good margin on. The new cars rolling of the line have a recommendation of using VR1 for instance as the oil company can sell more of that oil and the car maker will get a kick back. It’s as simple. It’s all based on money. So that said, when you have pro racing teams most of the pro drag teams have sponsors, either money for name placement or product for use in said car (like Justice Brothers) vintage racers and sportsman racers are for the most part self funded and buy the quality products that will make their machines last. So this leaves you with, expensive boutique, kinda expensive mid-grade, slightly expensive basic ***** name brand and cheap ***** store brand.
It’s funny, I use all levels, Penn Grade in my built 340, Red Line in my girls Subaru, Castrol high mileage in my 02 Ram 5.9 mag, and cheap store oil in my 04 Colorado.
so it come down to application of oil for which one to pick.
so pick your poison and motor on.
And like I said before, my brother uses Penn Grade in the Cosworth DFV’s he builds…
Josh owen
Bang em till it breaks
Valvoline VR-1 20w-50 run it in everything 31 bucks for 5qts on Amazon
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Other people have posted this so it may be easier to do a search on it here. Of course, there are quite a few threads on this so you may spend a week sorting through them. So here goes.
Parts stores are in business to make money. 12 bucks a quart oil sells S-L-O-W!! That ain’t making them money. Plus, the cost to buy the oil is more (I’m talking about the initial cost for the store to put it in the warehouse, truck it to the stores and then let it sit on the shelf. That’s a profit killer for them.
Most guys will buy based on price and nothing more. The parts stores know this, so that’s what you get. The cheapest oil that moves the fasted so they make money. There is nothing wrong with that, you just have to know that going in.
So let’s look at the cost of the oil I’ve tested the most, one I want to test (someday I hope) and something you’ll find at a parts store.
Driven 5w20 XP1 is an oil that has made more power than any other oil I’ve tested so far. It’s synthetic. And it’s 22 bucks a quart. That ain’t cheap. But it makes power. Because it’s a synthetic and it’s built correctly and has a nice additive pack, you can use one grade lower (5w20 rather than 5w30 or a 10w30) and get the same protection, and make more power. It will also last longer between changes.
On that topic the only way to KNOW you are changing your oil soon enough or not soon enough is to get your oil tested. You will see if the additive package is getting used up or if you are changing it too soon and pissing away good money when the oil still has life. Changing an oil too soon is a giant waste of money. So get into the routine of getting your oil tested. It’s cheap AND you will catch little issues before they become massive problems.
A quick look on the web and I found Mobil 1 5w30 synthetic (not a “high mileage” blend) for 12.49 a quart. I picked this one because it’s about middle of the road as far as pricing goes, and I know a bit about this oil.
Mobil 1 uses a single base stock oil. I guess I should have cleared that up first. There are 5 grades of base oils recognized in the world. I forget what Group 1 oil are exactly, but IIRC it’s nothing used today for engine oils.
Group II oils are refined mineral oil (there is no such thing as fossil oil...but that’s another topic) and these group oils have characteristics that limit what can be done with them as far as additives are concerned. This is a pretty limited base stock and this is what is used for any engine oil that is classified as mineral oil.
Group III base oils are highly re-refined mineral oils. They are classified as synthetic but they aren’t really. The molecular structure is far more refined but it is still mineral oil. It gets classified as synthetic but it’s not. One dead give away you have a Group III base oil is if you can use it with alcohol based fuels. If you can and it’s called synthetic then it’s Group III. That is because the other two groups of base stocks are produced by and with methanol and in some cases ethanol and other alcohol based products. If you can use alcohol based fuels with Group IV or V base oils ring seal will suck and I’ve seen the additive package actually fall out of the base oil.
Group IV base oils are Polyalpholiefins. This is a true synthetic base stock. It has many properties that are great for engine oils but it does have its limits.
Group V base oils are ester based. It is a true synthetic base oil and there is more than one “ester” that can be used. One I can think of is polyol esters. Is think diester is another but that doesn’t look right now that I typed it. But there is more than one ester.
Like any base oil, it has things it does well, and things it doesn’t do well. Some base oils have high bulk temperature ratings. Some are better at holding additive packages.
To clean it up, Groups I, II and III are mineral oils and III gets classified as synthetic but it’s really not. Group IV and V base oils are true synthetic base oils. Some oils are built just using a single base oil and IMO the best oils are a blend of Group IV and V oils, using each base oil in a percentage that complements what it does best.
Now that that’s out of the way, Mobil 1 is a single base oil of either Group IV or V. It’s been a while since I looked at it. It fills a market that fits it between the Group III oils on the shelf and the high end oils the parts stores won’t carry. It’s a good oil for its price and is certainly better than any Group III oils.
The oil I want to test when I get a chance is LAT. It is an Ester/PAO blend. It is just over 25 bucks a quart. I believe it has a very expensive additive package. The base oils pretty much cost the same. The increased price comes from the additive package.
That is an example of three different price point oils. The chances of any parts store or even speed shop selling an oil like LAT is for all purposes zero. The oil
has a price that would make it a zero mover for the parts store oil shoppers.
Many believe that what they have been using for decades is good enough. And it may be. I have tested enough oils to know that the cheap store brand are just that, and that if you have to buy an oil from a parts store Mobil 1 is your best bet.
If you want to step into the 20th century with the oil you use, you should be looking at something that has a blended base oil of PAO/Ester and get on the phone and ask what is used in the additive package.
Some race only oils (especially oils with a PAO or Ester base only) are not capable of being used on the street because one of those base oils won’t readily hold a street level detergent package.
Spend some time and chose wisely. Doing so will produce hp gains and make parts live longer. Plus you will get better ring seal.
70Duster340
Well-Known Member
That's a lot of good info, and I appreciate it greatly.
33IMP
Well-Known Member
@S'cuder, I didn't forget, but I just got home again yesterday.
The box just says 3589 on it, but here are pics of front, back, and bottom of the bottle. (Got a couple valvoline racing 50wt too, SG also)
In case you can't see it...
1821/1 V111F/STK3589
Clearly, I was wrong about it being SD, lol.
that is what i have used on mt ft 340 15000 miles and my 426 stroker if i can't get vr-1 synthetic i use royal purple xr-1 10-40 never had problem with either oils don't think i burn a quart during a season 5 to 7 thousand miles
i have used synthtics since te 80's never had any leaks caused by the oil all high mileage cars over 400,000 miles not one had any engine failures or burned oil between changes yeah i'm old and used to drive over 100,00 miles a year good oil pays off
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Another option. Castrol is at the top of any list, in regards to quality. Actually just found this, this morning.
Valvoline 822388 Valvoline VR1 Racing Motor Oil | Summit Racing
10w-30 VR1 since my engine was rebuilt. I don't add anything to it. Run about 500 miles a season and it is a mild 360. Mopar Performance oil filter.
My modern DDs - Acura Amsoil, and Honda Si with performance mods use Mobil1 both 0w-20. I wouldn't use synthetic in a classic/vintage but that's me.
10w-30 VR1 since my engine was rebuilt. I don't add anything to it. Run about 500 miles a season and it is a mild 360. Mopar Performance oil filter.
My modern DDs - Acura Amsoil, and Honda Si with performance mods use Mobil1 both 0w-20. I wouldn't use synthetic in a classic/vintage but that's me.
Thanks, that helps a lot.
3589 was the part number. There were all four digit part numbers until the merger with Quaker State. Easy to remember. They then went to longer numbers, and it took a while to use them enough to memorize them.
The date code is VI11F.
V stands for the packaging line. I don't remember it, it may have been a contract batch. Or more likely I just forgot.
I, being the 9th letter of the alphabet, indicates the 9th month, September.
11 is the day of the month.
F is the 6th letter of the alphabet, corresponding to the year, in this case 1996.
So this bottle was filled exactly five years before the 9/11 attacks.
API SJ was introduced in 1996, so this was already one or two ratings obsolete. By reading the label, it's clear they didn't want it to be used in passenger cars. As I said, I was told that was because of the high ZDDP levels were known to cause pitting and spalling. They wanted to avoid liability from damage caused by a misapplication. I did sell a bunch of this stuff to Harley aftermarket shops. They loved it.
For a long time previous to this bottle, the GT 50 was rated SD. Thanks again!
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