Synthetic oils

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Locomotion said:
There are at least a dozen different statements on that issue from reputable engine builders, cam companies, oil companies, etc.

Removing zinc and phosphorous from oil is being done for the same reasons as lead being removed from gas, sulpher being removed from diesel fuel and alcohol being added to gas. None of it is good internal combustion engines, especially older ones.
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oh my Lord. like I said, you wanna run crazy spring pressure with a mech. cam on the street, you take your chances. i don't care what oil you use. want to play it safe? run a roller. that shouldn't even be debated. whats truely amazing is that everything the reputable engine,cam,oil,etc companies say on why zinc is this or that.. there isn't millions of non-roller cam failiors in all kinds of cars everyday. last time I looked, there wasn't.
 
Everything I've read and everyone I've spoken with says the zinc additive is indeed needed at break in, but not required after that. However, everybody I spoke with in person said the same thing. that even though it's not required after break in, it's certainly not a bad idea. I'm runnin it.
 
I run the Amsoil 10w-40 specifically because it has zinc. They also clearly state that the oil is NOT capable of going 25K miles like its other oils, simply because the zinc will not last that long.

It's irrelevant anyway, because I am never going to hit their 12K mileage limit in a year.:toothy10:

One thing people need to remember about factory fill synthetics....the engines are pre-spun for break in before the oil is ever added. I ran my 360 for about 2K miles before I switched to Synthetic.
 
slantsixdan said:
Show me evidence it's worth the extra money. Bet you can't.



Show me evidence you couldn't have done the same, with the same results, with Mobil-1 or Castrol Syntec or similar. Bet you can't.



Show me evidence it works better than Mobil-1 or similar. Bet you can't.



Show me evidence he couldn't have had the same result from Mobil-1 or similar. Bet you can't.



The Slick-50 effect: "I paid more; it must be better!" Marketing Psychology 101, day 1. The French Government did an experiment some years ago in which they got a bunch of cheeses, all the same, and divided them into two groups. One group sold for 33 centimes per kilo, the other for 66 centimes per kilo. Same cheese offered to the same shoppers at the same stores. The 66-centime cheese sold much more briskly. The lesson is obvious.

Hey, I bought a '92 LeBaron 2.5 with 70k miles on it, put in Mobil-1 and changed the oil every 16k miles. When I sold it with a coolant-leaky head gasket, it had 170k miles on it. The new owner reported the cylinders still had cross-hatch and no substantial top ridge when he pulled the head to replace the gasket. And all this without amazing, miracle magical Scamsoil…how is that possible?

(For those keeping score at home: my anecdote is equally worthless as his anecdotes as evidence)
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WOW! Slantsixdan, all the knowledge and you didn't even know Mobil isn't even a true synthetic.

El Oh El...........

Posts like this make the world go round.........


I use Amsoil or Royal Purple......

Here's some of my results with Amsoil.

Lister ST-1 5KW generator, Amsoil 15W40, 51,000 hours on the piston, rings, bore, cam, lifters, crank, bearings, etc. Two rebuilt heads. Damn thing has been running on a crank that has never been turned since I was 5 years old.

92 Dodge CTD, 418,000 miles, Amsoil 15W40. makes about 300HP, idles for days in cold weather, pulls 10K plus almost every time it goes out, runs the haul road, etc..........

95 T1500, 318 plow truck. 218,000 miles, Amsoil 15W40. Bottom end is perfect, oil stays clean for 2K mile change interval, and remember, it has had a plow, and has plowed commercially, (80+ hours per snowfall) since new. Valve guides and seals are shot.


I think the fight over what is worth the money is the persons buying it. I'm sure the Tech2000 Walmart Synthetic is just fine, and probably better than the *cough cough* fake synthetic Mobil.
 
One thing people need to remember about factory fill synthetics....the engines are pre-spun for break in before the oil is ever added. I ran my 360 for about 2K miles before I switched to Synthetic.
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I'm on engine 3 of my very own, started from the get go with Amsoil 15W40 Diesel marine. Doesn't burn any more than any Dodge truck or Boat will.

It's not the pre-spinning that makes it OK, it's the moly coated rings, square cylinder bores, and a quality hone. If this is done right, the rings are broke in before the Amsoil replaces the Torco castor oil I use for cylinder/piston/ring lube during assembly.
 
dodgetkboy78 said:
WOW! Slantsixdan, all the knowledge and you didn't even know Mobil isn't even a true synthetic.
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The new extend protection Mobil 1 products are made from Group IV base stocks and meet the defintion of Synthetic every where in the world.

The argument over whether the oil derived from Group III is synthetic or only Group IV base stock is synthetic is silly. Either base stock starts with crude pumped from the ground and then is manipulated to produce a consistent hydro-carbon chain in each molecule.
There may be some slight perfromance diffrences between the two but there is also a price difference, in either case they are much better than conventional oil.
 
RustyDusty said:
I'm in the middle of rebuilding a '98 360 magnum. Talk about engine sludge when I first dug in there... ICK! It got me to thinking... what full synthetics do you guys like for your engines? Also what weight would you go with if not factory spec weight?
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I've tried mobile 1, valvoline, kendall...

Out of the 'off the shelf' oils, Kendall was the best when it came to thermal breakdown/viscosity, and to me [besides the basics of oil/'zinc'] that is very important.

However, I only use the kendall oil if I run out of Schaeffers semi syn 7000
Schaeffers oil is the bomb/best IMHO.

I run a 340 and a 410, rev'em 6500rpm 'more for the 340' and cruise the freeways @ 35-3800 rpm on average, I change the oil the recommended' by schaeffer' 7k...yep saves money too=less frequent changes, this oil does not break down and turn into carbon soup like most others do in the short amount of time-3k like the off the shelf does.

I buy cases of this stuff, and if some of you guys around here would give it a try....you'd be hooked, the engine runs cooler 'no bullshit' and the psi stays up even after being wrung out on the hyw turning a constant 4k or so.
All my motors are clean, no burnt crust/coating, no sludge...perfectly clean.

20/50w is what I use in my 'built' engines.
I run 5/30w in our milage mizer compact.


http://www.schaefferoil.com/engine_oils.html
 

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I need to chime in here.
I do have a lot of experience using synthetic oils and greases over the years.
Namely Amsoil.
There is not a better synthetic product out there than Amsoil. Period.
Any full synthetic oil is a good idea, but i had the best results with Amsoil. (I am not a dealer BTW!)
Synthetics should not be used on worn out parts or engines with the hope that they will make them better. Synthetics work well with good engines, and parts that are in good condition. A common myth spread by dealers is that they will "magically" save your parts or engines and that is not true.
2 stroke oil:
20 plus years ago i used to race motocross with 2 stroke engines, and the manufacturer recommended 20:1 mix. Bel-Ray was the big deal at the time and they recommended 40:1 and all of the big name racers used it. Amsoil 2 stroke oil was recommended at 100:1 and i used that, i had to jet the bike down a lot, and i never had a problem with engine failures at all, on the contrary, i went a whole season on one spark plug, and at the end of the year, i tore the engine down and it was still like new inside. The bore was measured and no wear on it at all. I rode the bike for 3 years with the same results.
Gear oil:
Specifically, i bought a gallon jug of the Amsoil 75w90 gear lube. At -40 i left the jug out all night and i was able to pour it easily, like engine oil. I used it in a Dana 60 in my '69 Super Bee with the clutch style sure grip with no other additives and it always locked both tires with no chatter or noise, i had the car for over 15 years, and it never changed. The oil still looked like new when i sold it 7 years ago.
Grease:
Back in the late '70s, my dad drove a truck for a living. He put on about 400 to 500 miles a day. My job after school was to grease and service the truck in the evenings. We would go through u-joints every 50,000 miles or so with conventional grease, and i would pump in 6 to 8 shots a night into them. Water and crap would come out of them every time. We switched to Amsoil grease on a new u-joint, and they lasted at least 5 times longer, and when i greased them, no water inside and only one shot to come clean. Same for the kingpins, steering, etc.
Engines:
My brother bought a new '78 GMC 3/4 ton pickup 350 auto. After break in, it was switched to Amsoil synthetics all around. He changed the oil every 10,000 miles and the filter (Amsoil) and he drove it 150,000 miles before the engine was pulled to put in a 454. The engine when pulled apart to be reringed and sold had no sludge in it, and was very nice inside with only slight wear. An easy re-ring job. Even the cam was reused, with no measured wear. How rare is that for a '70s small block chevy?

The bottom line is that i'm sold on synthetics, especially Amsoil, even if it costs 4 times the price of conventional oils and greases.
Good proper maintainance goes a long way too.
Just drive in the cold weather and feel how stiff the vehicle is without synthetics, as opposed to with. (we're talking -40 here)
You'll be sold.
Amsoil's not worth it you say?
Convince me otherwise, all of my experiences were before they were marketed heavily, and they are as good today as they were then if not better.
Just my 2 cents as always,
Tom.
 
Unless your particular make engine specifies synthetic motor oil in your vehicle owners manual, synthetic oil won't amount to a hill of beans difference if you keep the oil changed at least what the manufacturer says. PERIOD. You'll have no sludge buildup, no gumups, no nuthin as long as you CHANGE IT. That's the number one most important thing to do. Unless your vehicle requires synthetic from the factory, it's all pretty much marketing hype.
 
I just try different oils and let the gauges tell the story, and when freshening...the bearings/cyl walls.

beyond a certain point , it's unnoticeable.. 'the differences that is'.

amsoil is pushed by military people, but government doesn't buy/use this exclusively, they use a lot of different 'labels'

the spec sheets tell u something, look at one sometime [all u amsoil users]
and no syn is not the end of it, not necessary but has it's benefits.
all the richard petty cars use shaeffers, remember...they get endor$ed by having the 'name' on the car....not by actualy using it....no one is checking to see..lol

but since valvoline/penns/havo/cast/etc.. have no intere$t in circle track 'driving schools' ....you'll see the brand they actually use in the car-on the side on the car.

just something to ponder.
 
Yep...heard the same thing from various people in the biz. Oil on the car isn't necessarily oil IN the car...LOL.

I stay with Amsoil because it has proven itself to me. I will concede the point that maybe my truck wills till be running at 120K with dino oil changed every 3K, but the point to me is that I can go 20K, use a fraction of the oil and filters and not spend the time under the truck every 5 weeks. If my buddy can go 230K, and only change his oil 9 times...they are doing SOMETHING right in the formula.

I will not say it is THE BEST because I have no empirical proof to make that claim. I also know there are other brands out there (like Schaeffers) that are also very high end, and I would be very comfortable using them, they are just not as easy for me to get (Amsoil regional warehouse is here in town).
 
There is two basic group guys we need to keep in mind here one group is our A-body mopars that most of us don't crank up and drive every day and second is our daily beaters. The daily beater is easy to keep the oil changed in it. My cuda however is a different story. I have to write down the date of the oil change cause there is no way I will be putting 3k miles on it within 3 months. That is of course using the dino oil time table.

I find it frustrating as hell to figure out what oil to use in my frickn cuda! The 360 doesn't even have 5k miles on it but I have changed the oil more than twice I know of. I just want a oil that is on the shelf and not have to buy a case of $80 oil just for a oil change. I have frickn holes in my drywall because I don't know exactly what oil and oil additive to use... I'm going frickn mad... MAD!
 
Well I see it like I said it. I think for the most part, synthetics are a waste of money and a marketing gimmick to get in your pocketbook. I mean, just look at any Ford product. Their owners manuals say 7500 miles for oil changes and 5000 miles for what they call "severe service", and that's for dino oil. I'll be a sumbitch if I'm gonna do oil changes every 3K miles. It's a waste and a myth that the industry has sold to the public to sell oil. It's bullshit and can be debunked anywhere you look. And the thing is, even if you only drive the thing a few times a year, as long as you DRIVE it when you do and long distances.....long enough for the moisture to burn off of the oil, you got it made. Now I ain't against synthetics.....they have their place. But for these older engines, yall are just slap gettin sold a bill of goods if you think synthetics are the end all be all. It just ain't so. Good old 30 weight worked back in the day and it'll damn sure as hell work now. The two most important things with oil are 1) CHANGE it and 2) Make SURE the engine HAS some.
 
StrokerScamp said:
Well I see it like I said it. I think for the most part, synthetics are a waste of money and a marketing gimmick to get in your pocketbook. I mean, just look at any Ford product. Their owners manuals say 7500 miles for oil changes and 5000 miles for what they call "severe service", and that's for dino oil. I'll be a sumbitch if I'm gonna do oil changes every 3K miles. It's a waste and a myth that the industry has sold to the public to sell oil. It's bullshit and can be debunked anywhere you look. And the thing is, even if you only drive the thing a few times a year, as long as you DRIVE it when you do and long distances.....long enough for the moisture to burn off of the oil, you got it made. Now I ain't against synthetics.....they have their place. But for these older engines, yall are just slap gettin sold a bill of goods if you think synthetics are the end all be all. It just ain't so. Good old 30 weight worked back in the day and it'll damn sure as hell work now. The two most important things with oil are 1) CHANGE it and 2) Make SURE the engine HAS some.
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I run the syn in my Dodge Ram until it gets at least 5k and sometimes longer.

Check this out... I bought a 2010 Triumph R3 Roadster motorcycle last year. After I put 1k miles on it I took it in to have it serviced as the schedule maintenance states. They changed the oil which is full syn and the filter. Now the next service is due at 11k. That's 10k miles before I have to take it to get service. There is no category about "severe duty" like you mentioned. A company like Triumph should know better than I but that's seems a little long. However I am going to do exactly as they say. Friends of mine tell me they wouldn't but heck I have a warranty for 6 more years with 0 deductible. LOL
 
superdart said:
Yep...heard the same thing from various people in the biz. Oil on the car isn't necessarily oil IN the car...LOL.

I stay with Amsoil because it has proven itself to me. I will concede the point that maybe my truck wills till be running at 120K with dino oil changed every 3K, but the point to me is that I can go 20K, use a fraction of the oil and filters and not spend the time under the truck every 5 weeks. If my buddy can go 230K, and only change his oil 9 times...they are doing SOMETHING right in the formula.

I will not say it is THE BEST because I have no empirical proof to make that claim. I also know there are other brands out there (like Schaeffers) that are also very high end, and I would be very comfortable using them, they are just not as easy for me to get (Amsoil regional warehouse is here in town).
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I've gone 14k on the same SCHAEFFERS 9000 FULL SYN , even had it anylized/partical count, it was still good and well below the ppm standard for material in the oil-wear.
the series # 'like 7000,9000..is the recommended change interval.
saves lots of $$$

there are dealers all over the country, the oils 4.75'ish a quart, not even expensive really compared to red line- royal burple-amsoil-lucas-brad penn.
Trinity Automotive sells it in colleyville
Napa in grapevine sells it too
really...it's take your pic when it come to the exotic oil level, I've picked mine.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
I've gone 14k on the same SCHAEFFERS 9000 FULL SYN , even had it anylized/partical count, it was still good and well below the ppm standard for material in the oil-wear.
the series # 'like 7000,9000..is the recommended change interval.
saves lots of $$$

there are dealers all over the country, the oils 4.75'ish a quart, not even expensive really compared to red line- royal burple-amsoil-lucas-brad penn.
Trinity Automotive sells it in colleyville
Napa in grapevine sells it too
really...it's take your pic when it come to the exotic oil level, I've picked mine.
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I'm sold!
 
I just try different oils and let the gauges tell the story, and when freshening...the bearings/cyl walls.
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The oil temp on my Cummins truck runs about 20 degrees hotter on the same hard pull with the same load, and idle oil pressure is lower, at the same temp on both oils...... Not to mention my change interval is 10K. Amsoil in the pan, it burns about 3 quarts in 10K, the times I had to get it changed and went to smucks at 8PM at night and bought regular dino oil, the oil gets so weak the oil pressure scares me by the time it has 5K on it, and after about 2K, it starts burning about a gallon every 1500 miles, gradually gets worse. (DELO 15W40 gets drank the fastest)

Friction test, double ball scar test, blah blah blah, if you know what you are looking for, your motor will never lie.

(that means Wildman is 100% correct)

And don't even ask what happened when I ran out of Amsoil 10W40 in my little quadsport 230 ice racer and tried to use Castrol 10W40........ LOL
 
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