T-bars vs Stored energy

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crackedback said:
IMO, Pinion snubber = door stop to let a breeze in the garage. I never use them, EVER. If the rear springs are good, clamped, it's an unnecessary item, a crutch. Low 10 and hi 9 second leaf spring A body cars... no pinion snubber in sight! :) You got your own data about whether they work.


Be that as it may, the problem he is encountering is simple spring wrap and then a violent counter reaction. A pinion snubber would be the simple fix. As Howard just explained though, a snubber is not practical for his particular application. Plan B in this case would be a simple pair of Slapper Bars. Since he's using a Dana and so does not have to worry about distorting the housing, Slapper bars would be a quick, effective fix. If that works to cure his basic problem, then he can move forward to the next step and work on the springs.
Click to expand...
 
He put a snubber in the car, didn't work. See a post 24
 
Thanks guys for the replies,
I'm listening

it's been over a year trying to find an answer to this problem

It started when we put the stroker in with stock leaf springs
it shook so hard
the passenger front window fell out of its mount... lol

it hops so bad, just knew we were going to break the 8 3/4. small joints. 4.56

during the off season (2013)
is when we put the 4.10 dana in (moved 2" forward)/ stiffer springs
lighter wheels, ET pro

Same results
after trying the snubber Aug. 2014, ran out of ideas.

looking at the four wheel drive
noticed the flat bottom spring

so took a set. cut the back half off and tried that

001-5.jpg



this pic was an attempt to get a long shock in there because we found out early that the shock was bottoming,
thought that was the whole problem
before buying an adjustable shock. $$$
we have 11" eye to eye
all the shocks we have need 14" to install

even tried mount the shocks in front on the axle

004-2.jpg


Nov 22, this year

found a track open

we had cut the bump stops/ lower the front, reset the toe.in

hated have to drive thru the water box.

the only thing that helped that day was retard the timing

What fun is that?????


We have a 68 Satellite
540
dana 4.56
stock shocks, stock leaf springs

NO hop
just breaks parts lol

first was break the rear yoke off
next sheared the teeth off the pinion,
then it turned the tubes in the dana

We then got a moser Dana with 1350 yokes and joints
So far, held up

Thats' when we thought to build the Dart> lighter car, easier on parts



012-Copy.jpg


018-1.jpg
 
Ok, the basic problem you're having is uncommon to Mopars, but very common to GM cars with trailing link rear ends...so perhaps looking at what causes those cars to hop might shed some light on what's happening with yours.
On those cars, the upper links face away ..upward, from the lower links. In four link terms, the Instant Center is out to infinity and so the rear never has that levering down effect that keeps the tire planted. Ideally, the point that those two lines would intersect would be right about the top of the trans tunnel.
Generally speaking, the point where the pinion snubber allows the snout of the rear to rise to, and the forward spring eye form that imaginary geometric triangle that would be the Instant Center of a Leaf Spring car.
Soooo, follow along. If you were to draw a straight line from the axle centerline, through the rear U Joint and then forward to the firewall of the car, and then draw a second line from Locating Pin of the Leaf Spring forward through the forward Eye bolt of the Leaf, where exactly would those two lines intersect eachother?
I would plot that out with the car at rest, and also do it with the pinion in its upward, "loaded" position. If either of those illustrations show the Instant Center out to infinity, that's where I would look for the problem.
 
Are there any clamps on the front segments of the spring, I can't see any in that one picture. If no clamps, clamp all of the segments together and make sure if any leafs overlap around 3-5" behind the front spring eye, that there is a clamp there.
 
tony-

I will plot that out, when I get it back into the shop


we set the dana at 3* down

the front spring eye is up 1" from
from the factory (front)spring eye

because we put the sliders on
( the slider is 2" less in height than a rear hanger)
spring is still 6" difference, front to rear, with rear being higher

SAM_0124.jpg


this was in jan 2014
hop
tried with shocks in front of the axle

still hop-, so we took these springs off

SAM_0145.jpg


and put the higher rate spring in





crackedback- after putting the heaver springs in

when i then added the flat leaf, at the bottom, i left the clamps off

tracks were closed around here

but in nov 22, found a track open

went -still hop

backed the timing off, to kill the hit
just to get it off the line

was no fun,
so loaded it up



In the video, that's the Chevy hitting the rev limiter in the water box...

[ame]http://vid267.photobucket.com/albums/ii313/draginmopars/white%20dart%202/hght.mp4[/ame]



as of now, waiting on the shocks

When they get here

going to take everything back out
after plotting what is there.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Howard, I can't tell exactly what I'm looking at from that pic..what's up with the rear shackles?
Click to expand...


was trying to show the relation between the axle and front spring
> only pics at that time

even with the other springs, ride height about the same, just firmer

rear of spring-it's a slider
thought maybe the springs were wrapping/ flatting out and binding the rear hanger, causing it to bounce

I was trying anything i could think of

as I said before never had this problem before, the Satellite is all STOCK suspension> works fine.
 
Ok, with that set-up you have there, the spring rate is going to be off the chart stiff. That leverage point at the rear shackle is an important tuning element. Longer the point, softer the spring, shorter=stiffer. You've got that car sitting on construction girders. Going back to the pinion snubber...it could never work properly with springs that taught. I would just toss a pair of normal shackles on that, and then try your snubber again. I'm sure that'll do the trick.
 
draginmopars said:
crackedback- after putting the heaver springs in

when i then added the flat leaf, at the bottom, i left the clamps off
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a problem.

NONE of those extra leafs are doing anything they are designed to do. Without clamps, you might as well run only the segment with your spring eyes at each end, all those others are nothing but extra weight. When you hit the throttle, all those segments separate and do nothing to assist the car in planting the tire.

Clamp the **** out of the front segments!
 
crackedback said:
Yeah, that's a problem.

NONE of those extra leafs are doing anything they are designed to do. Without clamps, you might as well run only the segment with your spring eyes at each end, all those others are nothing but extra weight. When you hit the throttle, all those segments separate and do nothing to assist the car in planting the tire.

Clamp the **** out of the front segments!
Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^^ and get some good shocks!

You will need a case of them spring clamps!
 
A few things come to mind. First video looks like the pinion angle is positive allowing the rear to pogo when it meets resistance. Another note is that a stock pinion snubber will have flex and a soft pad whether that's rubber or poly. The bolt mounted to tubing welded in the car is too stiff. The problem is that your getting too far away from Ma Mopars million dollar engineering and not buying a complete system for the rear like a Calvert set up.

The second video shows a car that's too stiff. It doesn't allow the rear spring to separate driving the tire into the ground. My stock suspension cars worked best with 6 cylinder leaf springs with a good shock. Most of your hook is in the front suspension. Especially in a small tire car.

In conclusion I would use a blanket approach. Easiest way is caltrac with ladder bar coil over being a close second. Then concentrate on the front. I spent a year trying to make super stock springs work on a 10 second car. What a waste of time.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Ok, with that set-up you have there, the spring rate is going to be off the chart stiff. That leverage point at the rear shackle is an important tuning element. Longer the point, softer the spring, shorter=stiffer. You've got that car sitting on construction girders. Going back to the pinion snubber...it could never work properly with springs that taught. I would just toss a pair of normal shackles on that, and then try your snubber again. I'm sure that'll do the trick.
Click to expand...



Follow whitepunks advice ^^^^

Sliders are what you order..in a White Castle drive-thru
when you want burgers
they dont belong under a Dodge !!!


Draggin said:
as I said before never had this problem before, the Satellite is all STOCK suspension> works fine.
Click to expand...

And Draginmopars/your own advice^^^^
 
crossram383 said:
Follow whitepunks advice ^^^^

Sliders are what you order..in a White Castle drive-thru
when you want burgers
they dont belong under a Dodge !!!
Click to expand...

Yeah.........why would you want to free up any potential suspension binding ?
Nothing wrong with using sliders unless you have them installed wrong and run out of travel.

I'll echo the clamp the front segment sentiment too.
Make sure it is about solid from the front eye to the axle.
Make sure that it pivots at the front eye too , and a solid bushing is never a bad idea.
And the best shock you can afford.
You have great advice on the front end here.
Six cylinder torsion bars , adjustable tubular upper arms and strut rods and good shocks there too.
The only way you won't get that set up to hook is if you are dramatically overpowering it and I don't think you are quite there yet.
Pinion snubbers do have a place........in a museum.
Technology has moved past them and their only purpose is as a band aid for shot springs.
You are not re-inventing the wheel here , so look at what works for Joe Stock eliminator and copy or improve where you can.
 
I've watched the vid a few times now and it looks like the front is pretty close , but you aren't getting a ton of separation in back.
Did you put a solid busing in the front eye ?
Start with clamps.
I think you'll be surprised.
 
We did receive a set of 4 Calvert shocks

Haven't had time or space to work on the car.
will go back to the SS springs,and clamp the front
has solid front eye bushing
install the new shocks

Track doesn't open until feburary
 
I'm in a similar boat.
It will be April before I can get out if I am lucky.
I got the car re-done just in time for the snow to fly so I will be working on the launch myself when Mother nature lets the tracks open.
The Calverts are a nice choice.
I'll be watching this to see how it goes.
 
Here's how I look at it. In 1965 guys like Gary Dyer were running 8.60's using standard leaf springs, 8.75 rears and pinion snubbers in full size cars weighing nearly 3000 pounds wet.
If you require anything more than that to go any slower than that, you're doing something wrong.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Here's how I look at it. In 1965 guys like Gary Dyer were running 8.60's using standard leaf springs, 8.75 rears and pinion snubbers in full size cars weighing nearly 3000 pounds wet.
If you require anything more than that to go any slower than that, you're doing something wrong.
Click to expand...

8.60's -Is that 1/8 mile??? >>> JOKING
 
draginmopars said:
8.60's -Is that 1/8 mile??? >>> JOKING
Click to expand...

Seriously, Howard. I've been doing this **** a long time, and studying what the early masters did with these cars and parts proves beyond the shadow of doubt that the rear suspension, just as Chrysler designed it is nearly perfect for what we do.
Another case in point are the F.A.S.T cars that are now running single digits at nearly 4000 pounds wet using only a pinion snubber and 7 inch wide Bias Ply's.
I agree about clamping the front segments, and the longer shocks...but any other modification to a Mopar rear suspension to go anything less than 8's (in the quarter) is a complete waste of time and money. Get back to the basics, and all your problems will disappear!
 
tele-tubby said:
Yeah.........why would you want to free up any potential suspension binding ?
Nothing wrong with using sliders unless you have them installed wrong and run out of travel.
Click to expand...

draginmopars said:
We have a 68 Satellite
540
dana 4.56
stock shocks, stock leaf springs

NO hop
just breaks parts lol

first was break the rear yoke off
next sheared the teeth off the pinion,
then it turned the tubes in the dana
Click to expand...
Yeah.....Why in the hell would you want to use stock **** on your car
and be breakin yokes,
shearing teeth off pinions,
and making Dana tubes into licorice ...ALL WITHOUT HOP ???
When you can use White Castle brackets and enjoy
hours upon hours of slider-hop at the starting line ?

tubtar said:
I've watched the vid a few times now and it looks like the front is pretty close , but you aren't getting a ton of separation in back.
Click to expand...

Slidinitis: is a limited grip condition
usually found on chevies and other Non-Mopar vehicles
utilizing white castle brackets instead of shackles
where the rear of the leafspring
is NOT Allowed to SEPARATE away from the Chassis (and plant the tires).
symptoms generally include
loss of traction,and severe launch embarrassment.
due in part to mild or moderate wheel-hop,
(in cases where short chevy brackets
are installed on a Mopar
wheel hop can at times be severe
when the spring eyes contact the end of the slot.
we ALL KNOW most things associated
with GM tend to come up...a little short)

Dragin..do yourself a favor
and see if Tubs will trade
your "Limited-Grip Slider-Brackets"
for a pair of his "SURE-GRIP Shackle-Binders"
Let him put those museum pieces ... "under his car"
he's got til April to work the bugs out.
You only got a month left til the track opens up !

TIHNK about Everything WhitePunk Says (I couldn't have said it better)
And GO with What you (ALREADY) KNOW WORKS...
Dragin said:
We have a 68 Satellite
540
dana 4.56
stock shocks, stock leaf springs

NO hop
Click to expand...

That is Unless You're afraid of...
BREAKING PARTS with ALL THAT TRACTION ???
 
Wanna bet that stock satellite suspension has some clamps on the front segments?

Any takers?

How many multi leaf spring cars DO NOT have any clamps, this car has NONE!

No need to swap spring, just try clamping what you have, unless you really want to swap, then clamp the snot out of each front segment on those SS springs.

Carry on.
 
Heres the simple setup on my '70 duster running a 416 ..318 torsion bars front and rear drag shocks set at 90/10 50/50..PINION SNUBBER..clamps removed from rear segment of leaf springs..car 60' in the low 1.40's:D:D:D
 
draginmopars said:
Thanks guys for the replies,
I'm listening

it's been over a year trying to find an answer to this problem

It started when we put the stroker in with stock leaf springs
it shook so hard
the passenger front window fell out of its mount... lol
Click to expand...
Dragin... Did you have shackles or sliders at this time ?

Cracked..Though I agree clamping the front of the leaf helps.
Unclamping the back of the leaf
plays a more important role
in allowing articulation of the axle housing under a load.
as well as having shackles vs. slider brackets to allow axle seperation/Rise from the chassis.
If I Were to USE sliders I would design them
similar to brackets found on Semi tractors
where the leaf spring is Allowed to SEPERATE from the frame
(within the bracket...Not Slotted like Dragins)
when the pinion climbs the ring gear
Under the Torque of acceleration .
 
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