That MotorTrend Mopar vs. Ford 408 shoot-out was really biased

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Bill Crowell

Bill Crowell

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I know this has been discussed before, but they deliberately crippled the Mopar motor's power output with a 170 cc-runner intake manifold!

They agree that the Mopar motor would have produced a lot more power if it had been ported to 190 cc. intake runners like the Ford had.

Freiberger says they used the Edelbrock 190 cc-runner manifold on the Ford because it cost the same as the 170-cc-runner manifold and "nobody in his right mind" would buy the 170 cc manifold with ports too small for the head, for the same price as the 190 cc manifold.

But David, that's a red herring! What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

Since you bring up the subject, David, nobody in his right mind would assemble a Mopar LA 408 stroker without porting the intake out and match-porting it to the head, either! And it doesn't cost anything, since you can do it yourself.

It was just an unfair comparison, and I think they should try to correct the error by porting the Mopar motor's intake and putting it back on the dyno.
 
agreed, the LA-X heads (your going aftermarket anyway) have a 179cc intake and they admitted that the Mopar held its own until 4500 when the ports ran out. Just put the friggin 170 matching flow port heads on the Ford, apples to apples!
 
If you look closely enough, those dyno tests are rarely "apples to apples". Advertisers are paying for the results in most cases, if not all.
 
Bill Crowell said:


I know this has been discussed before, but they deliberately crippled the Mopar motor's power output with a 170 cc-runner intake manifold!
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Incorrect on 2 things, probably....
They used the head you get and the only aluminum head available at the time. It’s Edelbrocks only MoPar head at the time.
The intake is not 170cc but the head is.
They agree that the Mopar motor would have produced a lot more power if it had been ported to 190 cc. intake runners like the Ford had.

Freiberger says they used the Edelbrock 190 cc-runner manifold on the Ford because it cost the same as the 170-cc-runner manifold and "nobody in his right mind" would buy the 170 cc manifold with ports too small for the head, for the same price as the 190 cc manifold.

But David, that's a red herring! What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

Since you bring up the subject, David, nobody in his right mind would assemble a Mopar LA 408 stroker without porting the intake out and match-porting it to the head, either! And it doesn't cost anything, since you can do it yourself.

It was just an unfair comparison, and I think they should try to correct the error by porting the Mopar motor's intake and putting it back on the dyno.
Click to expand...
Your right, they corrected that later. You ***** and complain to early. LOL!
 
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To add......

Dave does make a mention in the video I posted to the new Victor heads being more Bitchin and I would like see those tested!

But as always, we lack equipment. Edelbrock has 2 heads. The Victor and the rpm. How else has an aluminum head for the sub Mopar? Well, Mopar does. However, when you look at what they have or had, you’ll find the W5 as the closest to the style of head like Edelbrock has. It is a hp stock replacement head. Then the W 7-8-9 RACE heads. Then there Is Brodix with 2 head choices.
Who else now???
The trick flows are not yet out as of this days post.

On the flip! How many manufacturers and versions of Ford heads are out thee?!?!?!?!
LMAO, you wouldn’t purposely under equip you engine! Unless that’s all you had.
 
Understandably, you would by the best parts for a given combination. BUT, if they wanted to do a comparison between an engine with two different cc intake port heads, then they should have tried both heads on the Ford 408 and showed the results, instead of using a different brand and handicapping it with the smaller heads. That gives a perception that one brand is inferior in power production and isn't a valid comparison. The test is titled Ford 408 vs. Mopar 408, so the parts used should be equal for a true comparison, regardless of what someone in their right mind would do. Especially when they have a comparable part available and chose to do differently. Come to think of it, who in their right mind would do some of the goofy stuff they do anyway?
 
I so agree with B3RE. Considering Frieburger did make that mention, (head differences) the way I see it, is it was showing (me) how the two different avaialable flow rates of the heads effect power a ton more than the brand battle.

In the second video, the MoPars ported heads should have (IMO) been dyno’d with the RPM intake BEFORE the use of the single plane.

Had THAT test been done, I think the comparison between the engines would have been much much more closer.
 
rumblefish360 said:
I so agree with B3RE. Considering Frieburger did make that mention, (head differences) the way I see it, is it was showing (me) how the two different avaialable flow rates of the heads effect power a ton more than the brand battle.

In the second video, the MoPars ported heads should have (IMO) been dyno’d with the RPM intake BEFORE the use of the single plane.

Had THAT test been done, I think the comparison between the engines would have been much much more closer.
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Also, unless I missed it, they didn't mention the port ccs after Dulcich was done hacking on them, so it's more like an apples to oranges, and then oranges to grapefruit comparison. Makes the whole initial test look foolish. Oh yeah, I bet the 1.6 rockers didn't help anything either. I'm glad these guys don't work for NASA.
 
He did warn us that some of us will cry. But they are not wrong at all, if I was building a Ford motor or any motor for that matter I want the biggest bang for my buck. If something is bigger and cost the same amount of money I'm going to get that. So, while it sort of shoots the premise of their video in the foot by comparing situations instead of engines directly, you still have to take the situation in real life into consideration and that's what they did. They used the best aluminum head that was available out of the box for Mopar at the time. It wasn't until afterwards that the Victor heads became available and Steve then ported those Edelbrock heads in the same manner to match.
 
Rumblefish360 said" "Your right, they corrected that later. You ***** and complain to early. LOL!"

Oh yes, you are correct, Rumble! My mistake. Thanks for pointing out the later video.

OK, for those who are keeping score, the final horsepower numbers were:

Mopar small block stroker: 531 hp.
Ford small block stroker: 472 hp

All hail Ma Mopar!
 
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Blackhatguy said:
He did warn us that some of us will cry. But they are not wrong at all, if I was building a Ford motor or any motor for that matter I want the biggest bang for my buck. If something is bigger and cost the same amount of money I'm going to get that. So, while it sort of shoots the premise of their video in the foot by comparing situations instead of engines directly, you still have to take the situation in real life into consideration and that's what they did. They used the best aluminum head that was available out of the box for Mopar at the time. It wasn't until afterwards that the Victor heads became available and Steve then ported those Edelbrock heads in the same manner to match.
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Like I said, if your going to compare brands, it has to be comparable. Perception is everything, and it does a disservice to the engine that gets shortchanged. What about sanctioning bodies that have class rules. Do they use a dollar amount to level the playing field? No, they use comparable parts between brands. A dollar amount would allow a Chevy racer to use exotic parts, and a Mopar or Ford guy to use lesser parts because they cost more. Can you imagine the outcry over those kind of rules?

If they want to use different parts, because thats the choice a car guy would make, then the comparison should be between the differing parts, not this brand 408 vs. that brand 408. I'm a businessman, and any businessman knows perception is reality. They created a false reality. I know that's an oxymoron, but it makes my point.
 
You certainly right, in order to get the fair test that we all seem to want we are going to have to ask them to build to a specific rule set like those race classes would. Otherwise, you get what we got already
 
Bill Crowell said:


I know this has been discussed before, but they deliberately crippled the Mopar motor's power output with a 170 cc-runner intake manifold!

Freiberger says they used the Edelbrock 190 cc-runner manifold on the Ford because it cost the same as the 170-cc-runner manifold and "nobody in his right mind" would buy the 170 cc manifold with ports too small for the head, for the same price as the 190 cc manifold.
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Maybe replay the video again. I believe you confused intake manifold with heads. Both engines used Edelbrock heads, they don't make the Mopar head with a 190cc intake volume, only 171cc. Now, you are right with respect they could have used the 170cc Ford head for a true size comparison. Instead, they went 190cc because of $$$ value. Has nothing to do with porting an intake. At the beginning, Dulcich even says that the 170cc head is undersized for a 408 inch engine. Listen to the last 3 minutes. There just aren't many options for LA motor cylinder heads.
 
ported performer clones
Indy
Trickflow coming soon
Victor
W-2 are other W series still available
 
B3RE said:
Also, unless I missed it, they didn't mention the port ccs after Dulcich was done hacking on them, so it's more like an apples to oranges, and then oranges to grapefruit comparison. Makes the whole initial test look foolish. Oh yeah, I bet the 1.6 rockers didn't help anything either. I'm glad these guys don't work for NASA.
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Well I agree that there not employed by NASA as well. But there show is still good at certain levels. I like watching them and I don’t go crazy picking it apart.

These guys are putting together a show that shows some cool stuff that the new guy and average hot rodder can do themselves or have copied for them. The show isn’t at a level that you would like to see it at. A really scientific go at engine building, cam, intake, carb, rocker arm Swaps. A real how to show and such good things.

Naaaa, these slap stick humored fellas just wanna have fun and not get to stupidly serious with things. They do show some Good stuff.

What would would have been nice to know in addition to head cc’s would have been air flow. To see the numbers in .050 steps to 1 inch lift. Why 1 inch? Why not?

I think the 1.6 rockers helped. Why? I think the head was still flowing well at the new lift and they took advantage of the flow that way. Otherwise, I really don’t see a point. If you can grab a few more cfm in air & fuel flow, why not?

Personally I think the show is best viewed with the brain remembering that this is entertainment. And a tiny dose of science.

Bill Crowell said:
Rumblefish360 said" "Your right, they corrected that later. You ***** and complain to early. LOL!"

Oh yes, you are correct, Rumble! My mistake. Thanks for pointing out the later video.

OK, for those who are keeping score, the final horsepower numbers were:

Mopar small block stroker: 531 hp.
Ford small block stroker: 472 hp

All hail Ma Mopar!
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No problem Bill. It made me laugh. Thanks for listing the final tally.
Wyrmrider said:
ported performer clones
Indy
Trickflow coming soon
Victor
W-2 are other W series still available
Click to expand...
I don’t know what W series heads are still available but ....
It is a shame the W5 wasn’t handled better or still being made. That was an excellent aluminum street, street/strip race head.

No matter how you slice it, the Edelbrock head is simply a really pavement head that has the ability to perform well to really really good. It isn’t a race head even though a few of us have figured out how to go pretty fast without higher dollar parts.
 
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