The Arizona Dart - teething.

[64ragtop]

AZ Dart. also known as "accidental Dart" (careful how you bid on egag) is at home in South Austin, Texas. Driving it a bit I find "something" is definitely NO BUENO about the idle and/or choke adjustments. The engine will start and seems to run and idle fairly normally. But after driving just a little, the idle goes way up, and shifting into reverse or drive from neutral results in a major jolt. Once in gear, the car runs steers and brakes reasonably well, though.

The first significant challenge was the carburetor. I had never even seen a BBS carb before. This particular one looks to have been terribly neglected, sporting a coat of many years of accumulated Arizona road grime. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, and I have pics that would show the problems far better than I can describe them.

Notice the "unique" vacuum choke linkage! Actually, that doesn't matter much because both that diaphragm and the one in the distributor leak!!
(Thank goodness the problem isn't leaky vacuum hoses! That would have been too easy to fix.)

Another issue (that can't be seen in this pic) is the fast idle cam's adjusting screw. Well, not that screw - the one next to it that is just hanging out in space with nothing to engage.
Was this thing assembled correctly and/or are there parts missing?

I'd like to find another BBS and swap it, then rebuild the one I have. If I could somehow acquire a good one, though searching the net for one has been like pulling hens' teeth. Anyone have a source for a functional BBS??

Of course there are always other approaches. There's the super six or another manifold and carb either of which get kinda spendy and time consuming. Any enlightening thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway, it's tired and I'm late....goodnight all


ATB

BC



_________________
Proud owner of a '64Dart GT convertible in "ARREST ME" red, a 64 Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust (the Az Dart), and a sixty THREE Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust.
Early Dart Disorder (EDD) is real, and I've got it!

 

[BillGrissom]

I have the same Carter BBS on my 64 Valiant. I'll try to take a photo for you when I get home. I don't know why the engine would speed up once it warms up. Maybe your choke thermostat spring is broken (bolts into exhaust manifold). Otherwise, when it get hot it should pull the fast idle cam around and lower the idle throttle position.

That nylon tie on the choke pull-off is silly. They should have at least used stiff steel wire. Test the pull-off diaphragm by: remove hose, push in rod, block port with finger, let go of rod. If the rod moves out, the diaphragm is torn and your pull-off useless. You will never get the choke adjusted right without a working pull-off. Its job is to pop the choke open slightly once the engine fires (and produces vacuum). You can buy the pull-off separate.

I downloaded a BBS manual from a link posted on FABO or maybe slantsix.org or an early Valiant site. It is similar to the very common BBD 2-bbl and looks fairly robust inside, though I have not taken mine apart.

 

[inkjunkie]

Wire tie? The things people do....

 

[64ragtop]

Maybe your choke thermostat spring is broken (bolts into exhaust manifold). Otherwise, when it get hot it should pull the fast idle cam around and lower the idle throttle position.

That nylon tie on the choke pull-off is silly. They should have at least used stiff steel wire. Test the pull-off diaphragm by: remove hose, push in rod, block port with finger, let go of rod. If the rod moves out, the diaphragm is torn and your pull-off useless. You will never get the choke adjusted right without a working pull-off. Its job is to pop the choke open slightly once the engine fires (and produces vacuum). You can buy the pull-off separate.

Thanks for the replies, folks - keep 'em coming. Y'all are really helping me overcome my ignorance of yet another /6 issue. I checked the choke pull-off by sucking on a clean piece of tubing attached to its vacuum port. The rod moved slightly and returned to rest and I could simply suck air thru the unit. That's the same way I tested the distributor vacuum advance, with the same result (dammit!)

The choke linkage looks to have been "adjusted" with the same back country engineering techniques as the plastic wire tie on the pull-off. The choke linkage moves freely, but the spring may well be broken. I didn't feel any resistance to moving the rod, but I haven't removed the choke from the manifold yet.

The responses I'm getting from my inquiries are leading me to quite a few sources for carb and choke parts. There are so many choices, and the NOS parts sellers mention specific carb "OEM" numbers. Of course, the metal tag that had that number is missing and one site offering carb identification mentioned that if the BBS tag is missing "identification is extremely difficult."

How important the exact OEM number is to locate parts that will work remains a mystery. The many variations of the BBS carb called for lots of parts that did the same thing, but were formed differently. Still, the pictures on some sites look awfully similar and I have a heck of a time making choices. I'm still puzzled about that second screw on the throttle plate next to the fast idle adjustment. (visible below the wire tie in my second picture above) There is nothing there for the nose of that screw to bear against, making it completely useless. Is there supposed to be another part there that would give purpose to that second adjustment screw. It's such a little "thing" but it's got me wondering. It's obviously doing no harm, but if it has no purpose why is it there?

The project remains interesting, challenging and frustrating. Reminds me of the old story of the guy who was pounding his face into a brick wall. A passerby asked why he kept doing that. The guy answered "because it feels so good when I stop."

ATB

BC

 

[65Val]

This is a BBD carb, but the throttle linkage is very similar. There are 2 idle speed screws....1 works with the fast idle cam (which yours is correct), and the other is the curb (warm) idle. It bears on the end of the big screw that holds the fast idle cam. It looks as if yours has had that large-headed screw replaced with a small-headed one. See pic below...

 

[65Val]

Here's a part of the factory service manual section for a BBS carb...Notice the large-head screw holding the fast idle cam...hope it helps...

 

[64ragtop]

This is a BBD carb, but the throttle linkage is very similar. There are 2 idle speed screws....1 works with the fast idle cam (which yours is correct), and the other is the curb (warm) idle. It bears on the end of the big screw that holds the fast idle cam. It looks as if yours has had that large-headed screw replaced with a small-headed one. See pic below...

That's EGG-FREAKIN'-ZACLY what it looks like, 65Val!! Thank you for the picture. I had seen that picture from the manual, but didn't know what I was looking for, or looking AT, for that matter. Makes me wonder if this is an example of the sloppy rebuild practices that SSDan and others have mentioned. We surely can't depend on the clerks at the generic parts stores to catch that stuff. I hope that the folks who have websites which mention the great care they take with their rebuilds WOULD use the correct screws and such. Seems to me that the only way to be sure is to do your own research and tap as many info sources as you can find. It's time consuming, but rewarding as well.

ATB

BC

 

[65Val]

That's EGG-FREAKIN'-ZACLY what it looks like, 65Val!! Thank you for the picture. Makes me wonder if this is an example of the sloppy rebuild practices that SSDan and others have mentioned. We surely can't depend on the clerks at the generic parts stores to catch that stuff. I hope that the folks who have websites which mention the great care they take with their rebuilds WOULD use the correct screws and such. Seems to me that the only way to be sure is to do your own research and tap as many info sources as you can find. It's time consuming, but rewarding as well.

ATB

BC

You're very welcome. Glad I could help! Take care.....

 

[BillGrissom]

Sorry, I forgot until the weekly updates, though looks like the other guys help you. Here is a photo of the Carter BBS on my 64 Valiant (had to play w/ brightness). The throttle rod is off for painting.

 

[64ragtop]

Sorry, I forgot until the weekly updates, though looks like the other guys help you. Here is a photo of the Carter BBS on my 64 Valiant (had to play w/ brightness). The throttle rod is off for painting.

Well, Bill and all, it's been a week full of hope and disappointment. Uncounted hours on the web, false leads, and lots of offers to rebuild my carb from folks I don't know. I'm as frustrated, I think, as I've EVER been at the difficulty of finding and acquiring two small parts. It seems that they must be made of that missing entry in the table of elements , "Unobtanium". Heck I even looked HERE: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8dtquYDXEU"]Periodic Table Of Elements Song With Lyrics - YouTube[/ame].

So, in semi-desperation, I ask: Does anyone have a fast idle choke plate shoulder screw (taller than this one so the curb idle screw has something to bear against) and a proper replacement for that silly wire tie choke pull-off link that you can spare??

ATB

BC

 

[65Val]

BC...could you weld a small nut (or possibly a short piece of pipe?...electrical conduit?) of appropriate size onto the short-shoulder screw you have, to give the curb idle screw a place to sit? Doesn't have to be super-robust as the area receives very little pressure.

Just a thought....


I was also thinking you could make the choke pull-off link from a wire coat hanger. BilGrissom's pic sort of shows what it should look like.

 

[Furiousvip]

Try calling these two shops, maybe they can help you out.

http://carbsonly.com/index.htm

http://www.carburetor-parts.com/default.asp

 

[64ragtop]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

Furiousvip, I struck out on both of your links. The Mikes Carb Parts site looked promising, but didn't pan out.

Bill, actually neither of those parts seems to need to be really strong. I think coathanger wire would probably work for the pull-off link, and adding some height to the choke plate screw shouldn't be too tough. I never dreamed that two fairly common ( I think) parts would be that hard to find. It just may be time for plan B. Of course, the primary requirement for going to plan B is to HAVE a plan B. I'm working on it! (but having those parts fall from the sky would be mighty nice!!)

ATB

BC

 

[64ragtop]

Time for plan B!

Well, I got tired of waiting for those parts to fall from the sky, and figured how to use stuff I'd put in my "I think I'll keep this - it might be useful someday" box. So. pictures of the cure for the too short choke plate screw. Now I can set the curb idle. The next task is making a choke pull-off link, There should be a coathanger around here somewhere....

 

[65Val]

There you go, BC. Nice job.

"Necessity is the mother of invention!"

 

[BillGrissom]

Very clever. For the future, check ebay once in a while. You see used carburetors all the time for ~$15 that would be good for parts. Might be hard finding a Carter BBS w/ a throttle rod, since that ended in 1964, but later cable-thottle types might have most of the same parts. I got a new Carter BBD for my 65 Dart (273 engine) for $25 a few years ago.