The Feds

[Princess Valiant]

As a student of Constitutional Law and Pulblic Administration i am very interested in the process of Federal Regulation ...particularly as it relates to the auto industry.

Many car ppl never give much thought to how the car has changed over the years and what might have been the main influence for the change and improvment.

The Federal Mandates have great power to affect the changes that we see in our old cars and may not always realize WHY the change occoured.

why did side marker lights appear in the 68 model year.

why did headrests and shoulder belts become standard after 69 but earlier models often didnt have them

why was the Vin number re-located to the dash from the door jamb in 68

why did front drum brakes disappear after 76.

why did re-cap tires disappear

ALL FEDERAL REGULATION

while i was nosing around government documents i was directed to this interesting site.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/fmvss/index.html#SN113

what do you guys think?

 

[66340SEDAN]

These are all safety issues, they just learned as they went and discovered upgrades were needed. The VIN was probably placed on the dash cause it was easier to read for dealerships, posssibly for police to recover or identify stolen cars, can't see the VIN if the door is shut or locked. Re-capped tired used to be really unsafe on cars, especially on the front. They are used mostly on heavy trucks and slow moving vehicles, even today some stated won't aloe them on the front. Some companies are making tires that have a recap on them like the old pie-crust racing slicks, not sure if these are DOT legal or not.

 

[Bulldozer]

same reason for the 5 MPH bumpers and collapsable steering columns. all new safety standards

 

[Princess Valiant]

These are all safety issues, they just learned as they went and discovered upgrades were needed. The VIN was probably places on the dash cause it was easier to read for dealerships, posssibly for police to recover or identify stolen cars, can't see the VIN if the door is shut or locked.

well its doubtful that the manufactures would have improved safety issues on their own will without federal intervention bcoz each improvement cost mega bucks.

whats most interesting to me are the dates each mandate occoured

 

[Bulldozer]

well its doubtful that the manufactures would have improved safety issues on their own will without federal intervention bcoz each improvement cost mega bucks.

whats most interesting to me are the dates each mandate occoured

i believe it was a gradual process as more and more studies and research were developed. every new model year, there are more safety standards put in to place no matter how big or small. obviously the Federal Government is running the show, but auto makers implement their own to improve safety in their designs. im sure it has an effect on marketing as well.

 

[66340SEDAN]

1973 was a big year for safety changes too. Some car companies upgraded on their own, even before the Feds required the changes. But most had to make them for the cars to meet the standards.

 

[66340SEDAN]

Did you know the 1948 Tucker was the first car to have safety glass? Way ahead of it's time! Cadillac also had many safety features that started in the 1930's that would be standard several decades later. Seat belts on Mopars were not even standard till 1965! My dads 1964 Fury never had them.

 

[memike]

These are all safety issues, they just learned as they went and discovered upgrades were needed. The VIN was probably placed on the dash cause it was easier to read for dealerships, posssibly for police to recover or identify stolen cars, can't see the VIN if the door is shut or locked.

I did not think about it this way before, I always thought it was to easy to
just change the drivers door on a car to match the Vin on a different car
I learn something everyday :cheers:

 

[Princess Valiant]

1973 was a big year for safety changes too. Some car companies upgraded on their own, even before the Feds required the changes. But most had to make them for the cars to meet the standards.

there are other countries that are still producing obsolete and inferior stuff like front drum brakes bcoz its cheap ....so i credit most of it to the Feds but you are right in that marketing had some influence ......make a better mouse trap and make more sales

 

[Bulldozer]

the developing crash test dummy technology played a huge role in the shoulder restraints and collapsable columns

 

[Princess Valiant]

crash dummy testing technology played a huge role in the shoulder restraints and collapsable columns

well, crash test dummies cost tens of thousands of dollars ......so the big question is : did manufacturers do it bcoz they love the customers or bcoz they were required to do it for public safety?

 

[memike]

Did you know the 1948 Tucker was the first car to have safety glass? Way ahead of it's time! Cadillac also had many safety features that started in the 1930's that would be standard several decades later. Seat belts on Mopars were not even standard till 1965! My dads 1964 Fury never had them.

My old 63 Valiant did not have seat belts ether :happy1:
And now my 2013 Avenger does not have an ash try :happy1:

 

[Bulldozer]

well, crash test dummies cost tens of thousands of dollars ......so the big question is : did manufacturers do it bcoz they love the customers or bcoz they were required to do it for public safety?

im sure it was both. auto makers do testing on their own as well as ship their cars to government testing facilities. they want to be able to say they meet and exceed government safety standards. maybe not so much then as they do now.
im sure there are companies that only do what is mandated to keep costs down, while other companies exceed it to sell cars

 

[memike]

Safety sell's and these crash tests put allot of jobs on the market, I have herd folks ask
what the safety grade is as they buy a new car, it did help in sales I believe and all models
had to be tested to pass inspection, a write off for the big auto makers JMO of course :glasses7:

 

[Bulldozer]

And now my 2013 Avenger does not have an ash try :happy1:

thats funny , i just had this conversation the other day. 2009 pontiac G6 , no ashtray, so if you forget and do light up , guess where the butt is going? right out the frickin window.

 

[67Dart273]

I can STILL remember in '67, before I went into the navy, and before the 68's came out, several of us were having a parking lot jam session at a local gas station. Guys were talking about "smog pumps," which came out federally in 68, along with other carb, ignition controls. A mechanic who worked for the local Chivvy dealer, in his high, nasal voice, "Well, they'll NEVER cram this #### down the public's throat. Why, there'll be rioting in the streets."

Yup. There was rioting in the streets. Only it was NOT about "smog pumps."

 

[Princess Valiant]

And now my 2013 Avenger does not have an ash tray :happy1:

its ok ....you dont need an ash tray .....please dont tell me that you smoke :banghead: :wack:

 

[Princess Valiant]

I can STILL remember in '67, before I went into the navy, and before the 68's came out, several of us were having a parking lot jam session at a local gas station. Guys were talking about "smog pumps," which came out federally in 68, along with other carb, ignition controls. A mechanic who worked for the local Chivvy dealer, in his high, nasal voice, "Well, they'll NEVER cram this #### down the public's throat. Why, there'll be rioting in the streets."

Yup. There was rioting in the streets. Only it was NOT about "smog pumps."

whats really interesting to os the State power...the states have ....California has historically had its own rules....so far i have seen the federal following suit and i have not seen a case of Federal Vs. A State

California cars seemed to have the earliest batch of smog equipment

 

[memike]

its ok ....you dont need an ash tray .....please dont tell me that you smoke :banghead: :wack:

Quit for a few months, slowed way down but Rani, yes this dunb a$$ lites up and have been for 40 years... I could give many excuses but it is ashamedly true I do... Yes I am weak and stupid :coffee2: but a man of my word Rani :glasses7: One day I will be smoke free.

 

[Princess Valiant]

Quit for a few months, slowed way down but Rani, yes this dunb a$$ lites up and have been for 40 years... I could give many excuses but it is ashamedly true I do... Yes I am weak and stupid :coffee2: but a man of my word Rani :glasses7: One day I will be smoke free.

you are far from weak or stupid ....your very cool and amazing, but you have to quit for yourself ....if you ever decide to quit and need friends support .....count me in line

 

[SSVDP]

You do have good point - because of regulations today's car are a lot safer and cleaner than our A-bodies.

What the Feds do is make rather arbitrary regulations and have had to revise and update them. A good example was airbags, mostly a good idea except when you are in the lower 25% of women for height and because you have the seat all the way forward then you were too close to the air bag if it deployed. So a bit of experience showed that all of these regulations need to be improved.

What the auto makers do is find the most efficient way to meet these regulations. If you look at exhaust emissions about 99.5% of the exhaust emissions of our A-bodies has been cleaned up even at 150,000 miles - any new gasoline powered car produces less pollution than an electric car!

Basically it was easiest to regulate a few auto makers than any of the other multitude of factors.

So if you look at it overall it's a system that has had decent results. But we are at a point where have regulations that conflict, that is safety and fuel economy (with the major factor in fuel economy being weight). Almost ever vehicle on the market today weights at least 3500 pounds to safety/ impact requirements (I think minivans & Chargers are over 4600 pounds). Not sure how this conflict will be resolved.

A-bodies and other vintage cars are still really great products and still functioning as intended. How many other 40 year old products are still in daily use today? the question should be: Could be have had a more efficient/cost effective solution with such things as better roads, better tires and real driver education?

 

[67Dart273]

California cars seemed to have the earliest batch of smog equipment

They do. CA had about the same or possibly THE same requirements with the 66 models that were required federally in 68. Over the years, I've had NUMEROUS people try to claim that "My Mopar bla bla bla doesn't have any of that smog crap" when of course it was "hidden" in the carburetor and distributor. First year or two Ma had EGR was also hidden, no external valve. All Ma did was drill some "jets" into the bottom of the intake, creating a full time leak from the heat crossover to the intake.

My old 70 six pack RR was a non CA car when I was stationed at Miramar. I got busted in a roadside CHP/ ARB inspection. That car from the factory never had carb snorkel heat (factory sixpack, air grabber hood) and also never had the evaporative fuel system stuff. That didn't stop those guys from writing me up. I had one of the old great big rectangular Mallory coils, and that was not acceptable, either. "It's part of the ignition system, which is part of the emission controls, and it's not approved by CARB"

It also had headers, Edelbrock, and an 800 DP Holley. They didn't like any of THAT, either.

 

[MRGTX]

Really good points all around.

Typically, the result of every new regulation is a product that's less appealing to an enthusiast who values performance and either underestimates or ignores safety issues. On the other hand, it also results in vastly safer, cleaner cars available to the average Joe.

It democratizes safety...you don't have to be rich to have a safe car in this country. Yes, we pay more for a base model econo car because of these government regulated safety gear but competition drives the price back down and results in a safe transportation bargain for the consumer. More cars on the road yet rapidly decreasing highway fatality numbers...obviously, some of our lawmakers knew what they were doing.

It's really shocking to me when I part my 318 Dart Sport next to my 2011 Mustang GT. These cars have nearly identical exterior dimensions yet the Ferd weighs 600lbs more despite the all aluminum engine!!

Then you drive the cars back to back- I LOVE the Dart...it's practically perfect...but the Mustang GT feels like a Galaxy class Starship in comparison. Vastly more power, vastly stiffer chasis, vastly better handling, braking capabilities in another league, fuel economy 40% better, exhaust that is much less toxic. Side airbags, ABS, traction control, crumple zones... Most of these changes are thanks to regulations and I'll be damned if it didn't result in one hell of a great car.

The great thing about this country is that if you don't like it, you're welcome to buy an old A-Body and drive it all day long.

 

[ocdart]

why did side marker lights appear in the 68 model year.

Rani, you're 100% correct in that side marker lights were Federally mandated starting with the 1968 model year - in order to improve visibility of other vehicles at night and reduce accidents.
But every 1969 model year Mopar was in violation of Federal law. Why? Because in 1969 Mopars had side reflectors rather that lights. They returned to side marker lights in 1970.

 

[zigs]

Don't forget that racing had a huge inpact on car safety and Federal standards. We wouldn't have the quality of tires if it hadn't been for racing , material composites ,load ranges etc ,roll cages and metal flexability.