Timing Issues

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No math required...

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=316278

HillbillyTimingtape001.jpg
 
Work off the 0 on the damp. when you make marks. Every 1" is about 16 degrees, so for 35 degrees you need to measure/mark the on the dampener approx. 2.25" from the 0 TDC mark (towards the ds/right as you face the car.
Or go get yourself a dial back, but that's not really gonna bring the pain level you need for educational purposes lol.
 
I read up until you said you are looking to get a timing tape. I believe you need to buy an adjustable timing light. Until then close the hood. Half of these replies are from guys who think they know. I cannot believe some of these replies.
 
I never have needed an adjustable timing light. Haven't bought a timing tape since, I can't recall the last one I bought!

I use an old inductive light from the 1980's. Works with every ignition I've ever had. It's not subject to some of the nonsense a Dial Back may suffer from depending on if you have an msd, etc.

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Pick your parts, pay your money.
 
mpdm3 said:
Now you lost me. The initial timing in the Atomic ECU was around 14* with full timing of 36* at 2500. The spring tension installed in the distributor will get me to full mechanical advance at 2500, full advance at that point would be the difference in initial and the button installed in the distributor. What I am trying to determine is what should be the correct initial advance, knowing I am going to get to 36* somewhere around 2500 RPM. To my knowledge MSD does not offer a spring that will bring in mechanical advance any later than that.
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Well 36 less 28 equals 8;as you said. Which will be worse than the Atomic.
Lets condense the numbers so you can see it at a glance;

A)- Atomic; Idle was 14, and power-timing was 36@2500 and this had detonation.
B)- MSD...Idle will be 8, Power-timing will be 36@2500 and how will this be any different?
C)- What the engine will probably want is idle-timing of 18 to 22,and power of 32 to36@3200 to 3600. But she will tell you, if you pay attention.It's been said before; give it only as much as she will accept. Don't forcefeed it.It is better to be 3 or 4 degrees short than even just 1 degree too much.
Yeah, I know the dyno said 36*. But the engine was not in a vehicle, burning everyday gas, with varying temps and humidity, and probably ingesting hot,underhood air.I guarantee you that your butt-dyno will not tell the difference between 32 and 36 degrees.Your torque peak is gonna be north of 4000 rpm, which is 37 mph in 1st gear with a 727,3.55s and 27"tires.How often are you gonna be there, in a streeter? So even if you lose 40 ft pounds, your stroker will be smoking the tires anyway, so you won't even know it. In second this 4000 will occur at about 63 mph, and Ima thinking that stroker is still frying the tires.And I'm willing to bet there won't be nearly 40 ft pounds lost in the 2 to 4 degrees.
So it seems to me you should be concentrating on idle to 3200 or so, cuz this is where the engine will be spending most of it's life.
8* of idle timing will suck way worse than 14* did.And if it detonated at 2500 with Atomic timing, it will still detonate at 2500 with MSD timing. Cuz in both cases the timing is/was all in at 36*
You need to talk to member "crackedback", and get a couple of his bushings, and you should figure out how to delay the power-timing,and you need an accurate way to set the power-timing, whether you pick a timing tape or remark your ballancer, is up to you. Most dial-backs don't work with multi-strike ignitions. The tape pays dividends when setting lifter preload or valve lash, or doing a leakdown test.If you have an automatic with a too-low stall TC or a a stickcar, this is when you notice this low speed performance,hole; cuz the engine is very often operating there,or stuck there, due to operating circumstances.

FWIW; a vacuum advance unit can cover a ton of bad manners at low load settings and easy driving.I wouldn't run a streeter without one.
 
crackedback said:
I never have needed an adjustable timing light. Haven't bought a timing tape since, I can't recall the last one I bought!

I use an old inductive light from the 1980's. Works with every ignition I've ever had. It's not subject to some of the nonsense a Dial Back may suffer from depending on if you have an msd, etc.

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Pick your parts, pay your money.
Click to expand...

THIS. Plus I've see a couple of "dial up" timing lights that WERE NOT ACCURATE

1.....Get / make/ buy a piston stop. Verify that your timing mark is accurate. You can buy them, I made this one back in the 70's BEFORE Al Gore invented the dubya dubya

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2....Consider degreeing your balancer. This is easy. You need something for a scribe, a small triangular file, and a small flexible tape. After you have justified TDC, measure around the wheel and do a bit of math to determine degrees per inch, and mark the wheel out to at least 55*

Once you measure out say, 40* you can use dividers and divide that into half, quarters, etc

2A....If you don't want to go to that trouble use crackedbacks hilbilly method. You can double check your work by putting the TDC and your balancer mark at 20 up against the pointer and make them "straight across. The 10ATC and 10BTC marks on the pointer tab should be the "same distance" as your TDC and 20 mark on your balancer. You can check from 20 to 40 the same way

3...Get the engine warm, get a vacuum gauge, and determine what the thing wants for initial timing

4....Determine what it wants, vacuum unhooked, for max power, no ping. "Lean" towards less

When you get initial and total established, the difference between the two gives you WHAT YOU WANT into the mechanical advance

5....Bear in mind that "all the books" (shop manuals) talk in DISTRIBUTOR degrees which is 1/2 CRANK degrees. "In rough figures" you are going to want about 20 or less CRANK degrees into the distributor.

6....The vacuum comes LAST. Once you get initial and "full throttle" down get the distributor curved, THEN you can worry about vacuum, which only works at high vacuum / part throttle / light cruise load.

HERE is a good read see post no 3, AbodyJoe

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=158842
 
Oldmanmopar said:
I read up until you said you are looking to get a timing tape. I believe you need to buy an adjustable timing light. Until then close the hood. Half of these replies are from guys who think they know. I cannot believe some of these replies.
Click to expand...


I have seen way too many junk dial backs. I use a 40 year old Craftsman. If I tune your car, it will be with my light. Then I check it with yours and record any difference.

Almost any aftermarket dampener will be degreed. The OP can either get a timing tape or do the math.

Both are cheaper than an inaccurate dial back.
 
yellow rose said:
I don't know what hillbilly timing tape is either, unless it's home made. In that case, you take the diameter of the dampener and multiply that by 3.14159. Divide that number by 360 (the number of degrees in a circle). Then take that number and multiply it by the number of degrees that you want to set the timing at, or you can find BDC, 90 and 270 degree marks for setting the valves. I hate math. So just for giggles, let's say you want to find 35* BEFORE TDC. It would look like this:

7.25 x 3.14159 = 22.776257. That is the distance around a small block dampener. Now 22.776\360 gives you .0632681 which is how far apart each degree is. Take that and multiply it by 35 and you get 2.214835. That is the total distance in inches you measure form the mark on your dampener where you make another mark. You line up the new mark with ZERO on the timing cover at full advance to set total timing.

All this is for not if you have a degreed dampener. Or you buy a timing tape.

Hope I didn't muddy everything up for anyone.
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I like math, so this I can understand. What is confusing me is the work advance. I am assuming this timing ATDC. If that is the case then any timing marks I place on the damper will need to be done on the BTDC side of the timing marks?
 
Since you cannot mark the cover in the CCW direction, you have to mark the damper in the CW direction.
Think of it this way; If you set the timing on the running engine to 10*BTDC, and then check the damper where the timing tab TDC mark is; it is CW of the balancer slot. So if you put a new mark there at 10* CW of the slot, they will again line up;the slot and the zero. But using that new mark will actually be 10* advanced.You could repeat this 3 more times and have the timing tab zero indicate 40*BTDC. Or repeat a total of 9 times to indicate 90*BTDC
 
BTDC = before top dead center = ADVANCE

ATDC = after top dead center = RETARDED

You want the stock TDC balancer mark ABOVE the zero mark on the timing cover if looking over the drivers fender. That is advanced and is the correct side.

As I mentioned with the hillbilly tape. If you mark the balancer as described. Set your TDC balancer mark with the 10 before top dead center mark on timing cover. Now... roll the newly scribed 15* mark even with the zero mark on the timing cover. Where did the original TDC balancer mark go? Closer to the timing cover zero mark or further away...

In the picture I posted, the bottom line is the original TDC mark, then the 15* and 30* marks. That is on the pass side. So if you roll the engine over to the timing cover mark location, the new marks will be BELOW the original TDC mark.

It works EXACTLY the same as a timing tape, except it NEVER falls off the balancer ring. :)
 
skizzo said:
Work off the 0 on the damp. when you make marks. Every 1" is about 16 degrees, so for 35 degrees you need to measure/mark the on the dampener approx. 2.25" from the 0 TDC mark (towards the ds/right as you face the car.
Or go get yourself a dial back, but that's not really gonna bring the pain level you need for educational purposes lol.
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MSD does not recommend a dial back timing light with their ignition systems, so I will probably stay away form this option.
 
crackedback said:
BTDC = before top dead center = ADVANCE

ATDC = after top dead center = RETARDED

You want the stock TDC balancer mark ABOVE the zero mark on the timing cover if looking over the drivers fender. That is advanced and is the correct side.

As I mentioned with the hillbilly tape. If you mark the balancer as described. Set your TDC balancer mark with the 10 before top dead center mark on timing cover. Now... roll the newly scribed 15* mark even with the zero mark on the timing cover. Where did the original TDC balancer mark go? Closer to the timing cover zero mark or further away...

In the picture I posted, the bottom line is the original TDC mark, then the 15* and 30* marks. That is on the pass side. So if you roll the engine over to the timing cover mark location, the new marks will be BELOW the original TDC mark.

It works EXACTLY the same as a timing tape, except it NEVER falls off the balancer ring. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks, going to give this a shot. Assuming I can use the same method for setting 5* increments? I think I saw a post that stated you make have bigger timing advance buttons than what is available from MSD?
 
mpdm3 said:
Thanks, going to give this a shot. Assuming I can use the same method for setting 5* increments? I think I saw a post that stated you make have bigger timing advance buttons than what is available from MSD?
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Yes, I do have bushings for an MSD distributor.

If you put them that close you best have a way to identify which mark is which. With 15* spacings, it's only two extra lines and you can get any number up to 40*.
 
crackedback said:
Yes, I do have bushings for an MSD distributor.

If you put them that close you best have a way to identify which mark is which. With 15* spacings, it's only two extra lines and you can get any number up to 40*.
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Good point, think I will stick with 10* - 15* spacing. What advance are your bushings and how can I get one?
 
(1) find/confirm true TDC with the spark plug hole tool. cut a strip of paper and measure out several marks on it for say 10-15-17.5-20 and your total (can plugged) 35 or 36. 0.0632683" is (1) degree. (2) set initial with the "vac gauge method) (3) Then shorten slots or select bushing to get your total (initial+slots, to 35 or 36) then play with springs first by tossing the OE heavy spring with the elongated loop and subbing in a mr gasket or MP light one in its place (Ace hardware has a selection) & you want to be a slight bit under the pinging point up thru the gears at WOT up thru the gears on your hottest/driest day THEN plug in the can & adj it with a 3/32" allen wrench so you are just under the pinging point in everyday driving stoplight to stoplight under varying conditions on your hottest/driest day and you want you adv curve to start no less than 100 RPM above your hot in gear idle speed which is what the eng will see at a stoplight. ANY pinging is extremely damaging but you want to be fairly close to that line for max power/mileage/efficiency. there is SILENT ping so dont crowd the line too close
 
I have 10 and 14 degree. Figure out your initial, go from there.
 
yellow rose said:
I have seen way too many junk dial backs. I use a 40 year old Craftsman. If I tune your car, it will be with my light. Then I check it with yours and record any difference.

Almost any aftermarket dampener will be degreed. The OP can either get a timing tape or do the math.

Both are cheaper than an inaccurate dial back.
Click to expand...

Kinda cheaper than a motor when all else the guy has to go on is the overly lengthy technical expertise of the guys on the internets. Since it wouldnt work with his setup its moot. Best advice is to really find a human being nearby that's willing to help dude out. Even a ford/chevy/B- body guy, it's not string theory as hard as we try to make it that.
I loaned my light to a boater friend and had to borrow my neighbors light. Like a 40 yr old craftsmen lol, was his dads. Naturally a couple days later I grab a breaker bar off the bench and the cord of the light was wrapped up on it. Goodnight, felt bad due to the sentimental issues. Anyway I bought him a $25HF dial as a joke since he despises HF, and when we put it on the Sun it was 1-2deg. off at max advance. My Actron dial is 2deg. right outta the chute lol.
Point is dude shouldn't really be maxing right out to 36 using the advice of a forum, when it's obvious OP is finding some confusion about the process. A light that's off 2deg. is a minor variable, and one that's easily overcome by dialing back a degrees and bumping up (as long as it's not d'ng obviously).
 
crackedback said:
BTDC = before top dead center = ADVANCE

ATDC = after top dead center = RETARDED

You want the stock TDC balancer mark ABOVE the zero mark on the timing cover if looking over the drivers fender. That is advanced and is the correct side.

As I mentioned with the hillbilly tape. If you mark the balancer as described. Set your TDC balancer mark with the 10 before top dead center mark on timing cover. Now... roll the newly scribed 15* mark even with the zero mark on the timing cover. Where did the original TDC balancer mark go? Closer to the timing cover zero mark or further away...

In the picture I posted, the bottom line is the original TDC mark, then the 15* and 30* marks. That is on the pass side. So if you roll the engine over to the timing cover mark location, the new marks will be BELOW the original TDC mark.

It works EXACTLY the same as a timing tape, except it NEVER falls off the balancer ring. :)
Click to expand...

I was able to work on the timing tonight. I used the hillbilly tape approach, however in lieu of marking at 5* ATDC I marked at 10 to give me 20* advance at TDC mark. I have about 25* of timing in the car now and I think I can go more as there are no issues with starting but without driving the car hard to tell if that is enough or if I should go more. My concern is putting too much initial advance in it and then throw in mechanical advance I will be close to 40* at 30* initial and a 10* button. Appreciate all of the advice. With work schedule and pending rain may not be able to drive for a few days.
 
mpdm3 said:
I was able to work on the timing tonight. I used the hillbilly tape approach, however in lieu of marking at 5* ATDC I marked at 10 to give me 20* advance at TDC mark. I have about 25* of timing in the car now and I think I can go more as there are no issues with starting but without driving the car hard to tell if that is enough or if I should go more. My concern is putting too much initial advance in it and then throw in mechanical advance I will be close to 40* at 30* initial and a 10* button. Appreciate all of the advice. With work schedule and pending rain may not be able to drive for a few days.
Click to expand...

Update. Took the car out for a drive, when I get on it, it is a bucking bronco. I retarded the timing to 20*, didn't seem to like that either. I did put the largest button MSD has which is 18* and the stiffest springs they have to slow the advance but may still have been too much advance. I have done all I am capable of doing and at a loss as to what to do next. Think it may be time to find a shop to work on it.
 
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