Timing mystery

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Trailbeast.... I'm not ready to place blame on your product quite yet... besides you dont make the modules so I cant really blame you if it turns out to be the module.

I have another new module but it is the flat kind with 2 prongs on each end. I would have to do some thinking about how to wire it up to your system or just start from scratch.... I will be the first to admit that electronics are not my forte...

No, no, if it's the module I'll replace it completely free including shipping, or reimburse you either one.

This is the plug.
Pop the rubber with the four holes in it out of the back of it and make sure there are not any wire strands touching together, or another pin inside there.
Don't try to make the other module you have fit, or you'll end up with some connections that look terrible.

newtoys.jpg
 
ok.... I remember now.... I'm not at home.

If I used my other module it would just be temporary..
 
SO.... I rebuilt another dizzy making sure shaft play and all tolerances were spot on.... Put new reluctor and pickup in.... Set gap to .008....set mechanical advance limit to 14* .... Install new dizzy at 20* initial.....
AND GOT 45* TOTAL !!

This morning I reconnected my Mopar electronic and all is right now......20 * initial 34* total mechanical.....car idles nicely in drive.... Power delivery more linear... But still not a tire frying monster like it should be.

So it looks like an HEI can cause an over advance...

Now I can move on to jetting.....that only took a few days out of my life....lol
 
....@ mbaird

what type of springs did you use ? Do you have a vacuum canister ? If so...does he work well ?

Greetings Juergen
 
Back to the post #42. I alluded, if the timing light incorrectly triggers on the start of dwell instead of the ignition event timing could appear advanced, and advancing with RPM.

I did some estimates, based on two RPMs, and a fixed dwell of 2.5 ms. The dwell on HEI strives to charge the coil to a peak current value. The inductance of the coil is in the relationship, for how long it takes to reach the peak current. More inductance, longer time. The 2.5 ms is an estimate, the actual number might be between 2 and 4ms.

At 700 RPM the time between cylinder events can be calculated. First calculate the frequency of spark events. There are four spark events per engine rotation, so 700 x 4 is 2800 spark events per minute. By dividing by 60, the frequency is 46.7 Hz (cycles per second). Time is the inverse of frequency, so 1 divided by 46.7 is 21.4 ms. So the engine rotates 90 degrees in 0.0214 s. I suppose you wonder about 90 degrees? one revolution is 360, there are 4 ignition events .... 360/4 = 90. So back to the top. What if the timing light triggered on the start of dwell, that happens 2.5 ms earlier? That can be estimated, 90 x 2.5/21.4 = 10.5 degrees advanced from ignition event, as seen by light. So what happens at 2500 RPM? 90 degrees rotation is 6 ms, so 90 x 2.5/6 = 37.5 degrees. When timings are compared at 700 vs 2500 there is a difference of 27 degrees. That is what appears, but these estimates are for the condition that ignition event timing is fixed.

If timing appears wrong, and timing is adjusted to that, by the light, the engine may really run poorly..... Some of us might guess what is up, by cracking the throttle, and listen what happens.

So possibilities for false trigger, could be timing light clamp probe polarity, or ignition coil wiring incorrec

Why might the Mopar ignition be different? It may have been wired correctly. Or because it does not use active dwell control. It uses a ballast resistor, the dwell period is long, and energy wasting.
 
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Dave ya lost me. Seems to me that the only factor is "when the spark" actually happens, as compared to when the light actually triggers VS when the plug fires. The delay between trigger and ECU, then is sort of out of the picture, at least in a steady state condition.

Or are you thinking the RPM change will thus change the trigger / system delay enough that relative timing change happens?
 
Del,
What I am trying to explain is the dwell start when the transistor is turned on, creates a transient. The transient is amplifed by the coil turns ratio. It is an event created by the HEI, to charge the coil to peak current, prior to the reluctor trigger point that turns the ignition transistor off, creating spark. Dwell proceeds, hence advance.

The calculations estimate the timing influence due to a fixed dwell period ahead of spark event. At lower RPM, the dwell is a smaller portion of the time, since the period between ignition events is long, compared to at high RPM. So at high RPM, more advance will be observed. As a test, the OP locked timing and still had significant advance increase with RPM.

On 12V ignitions, start of dwell transients are not typically a problem, but at 24V and above they can be. A few years ago there was an industry plan, to raise the battery voltage to reduce current, and wire sizes, one of the obstacles was the undesired transient.
This mystery may go unsolved. I have the equipment here, to capture the distributor signal, ignition coil primary voltage, and trigger scope with the bnc connector I added to my light. Seeing what the pickup signal and coil primary signals are doing at ignition event, and where light triggers, is key to solving mystery.

The post above this suggests the balancer, and the timing tape has fell off at least once . So that is a possiblity too. Slipping that much and returning seems uncertain. The high end balancers like rattler are inscribed, and referenced to crank. The movenent is internal to hub.
 
I cant argue with that.....lol
Suprisingly I kinda understood what you were saying......kinda....
Balancer is new and highly unlikely it advance timing then go back exactly the same amount each time.
The cursed timing tape ! I have yet to have a motor it would stay on..... I even clear coated over it last time....
 
I cant argue with that.....lol
Suprisingly I kinda understood what you were saying......kinda....
Balancer is new and highly unlikely it advance timing then go back exactly the same amount each time.
The cursed timing tape ! I have yet to have a motor it would stay on..... I even clear coated over it last time....

I tried a timing tape once and it didn't last long in year-round use, so I pulled the dampener, repainted it, and made my own marks with a carbide tip scribe.
Rubbed in black ink, wiped off, and never wondered about it anymore.
 
UPDATE.....
I had another new HEI setup around so I wired that in and all is working now...
Sorry Trailbeast...

Now onto jetting and other misc pains....
 
UPDATE.....
I had another new HEI setup around so I wired that in and all is working now...
Sorry Trailbeast...

Now onto jetting and other misc pains....


So what was the final final conclusion regarding the ignition advance?
 
For those that are running Orange type ECUs
I've read a few other threads that indicate reversed wiring on the reluctor pickup showed similar symptoms ....but unless I need to retime when I reverse the wires
it doesn't appear to that because the car barely runs when I switch them..
Maybe I should get a new pickup and try that ??

Yes ; if you reverse the pick-up polarity, you have to reset the initial timing. If the light is stable at idle only, and goes unstable with an increase in rpm,and the timing jumps around ridiculously, then you have made it worse.
 
I used the same ground and hot sources .
I had purchased all the separate components to do the conversion last year but decided to try Trailbeasts proven set up instead.
I have to assume that the module has a glitch in it...

Now for the jetting... My plugs are still bright white even though I stepped up 4 jet sizes on primaries in an attempt to at least know when it's too rich. I can tell it is not liking it. Maybe a new thread for that issue.......
 
I used the same ground and hot sources .
I had purchased all the separate components to do the conversion last year but decided to try Trailbeasts proven set up instead.
I have to assume that the module has a glitch in it...
Check your Paypal account. :D
 
Thanks..... But I wasn't sweating it..
If I had a buck for every bad "new" part I have installed I'd be middle class...lol

It was a good excersize for my ignition knowledge and tuning.... I learned a lot and remembered stuff I had forgotten .
 
Thanks..... But I wasn't sweating it..
If I had a buck for every bad "new" part I have installed I'd be middle class...lol

It was a good excersize for my ignition knowledge and tuning.... I learned a lot and remembered stuff I had forgotten .

Yea, well I feel better about it this way.
And this way you can use it for whatever you want if not needed for the ignition.
 
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