mikesduster
Well-Known Member
what do you set your SB timing at??
TIMING
- Thread starter mikesduster
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BARRACUDA340S
Well-Known Member
I had my old 340 at 40 total. 36 was lazy for me.
mikesduster
Well-Known Member
thanks..anyone else??
Mopardude
Well-Known Member
Mine seems to be doing pretty good at 36 initial and 45 total.
This is an insane question that no human "bean" could ever answer without the details?
Because of the relatively center location of the spark plug in a Mopar compared to the Off brands the max timing you should need on a flat top motor is 34*. For every 10 CC of dome or dish you can add 1* of timing.
Initial timing is a calculation based on compression ratio, valve overlap, duration at 50, total gross lift, fuel octane, manifold type.
Where it all comes in at is figured by weight, gearing, convertor stall, tire diameter, compression ratio, fuel octane, tranny type, driving style and the driver right shoe size.
If your running more than 34* degrees then you need to have your ignition system put on a Distributor machine and find the defective component either your ECU is pulling timing out, your coil is skipping cylinders, you timing light needs to go back to Walmart or you need to find TDC on the crank.
Sorry Mopardude, but 36/45 is an mathmatical impossibility, if in fact that is the real timing in your motor you have accomplished what no other engine builder or tuner has ever done in the history of the internal combustion engine. You need to find the problem and get it set correctly.
Because of the relatively center location of the spark plug in a Mopar compared to the Off brands the max timing you should need on a flat top motor is 34*. For every 10 CC of dome or dish you can add 1* of timing.
Initial timing is a calculation based on compression ratio, valve overlap, duration at 50, total gross lift, fuel octane, manifold type.
Where it all comes in at is figured by weight, gearing, convertor stall, tire diameter, compression ratio, fuel octane, tranny type, driving style and the driver right shoe size.
If your running more than 34* degrees then you need to have your ignition system put on a Distributor machine and find the defective component either your ECU is pulling timing out, your coil is skipping cylinders, you timing light needs to go back to Walmart or you need to find TDC on the crank.
Sorry Mopardude, but 36/45 is an mathmatical impossibility, if in fact that is the real timing in your motor you have accomplished what no other engine builder or tuner has ever done in the history of the internal combustion engine. You need to find the problem and get it set correctly.
Mopardude
Well-Known Member
Sweet my motor is one of a kind!!!! :thumrigh:
But seriously it is possible my numbers are a little off its hard to read the timing marks on my balancer. According to the instructions that came with my ignition system for my motor it should be set to 34 initial and 50 advanced. My car runs good with no pinging so I am not really worried about if it doesn't mathematically equal out. I kinda doubt Mikeduster was looking to plug our numbers into his setup. I think he was looking for more of a guide line to start from and go from there.
But seriously it is possible my numbers are a little off its hard to read the timing marks on my balancer. According to the instructions that came with my ignition system for my motor it should be set to 34 initial and 50 advanced. My car runs good with no pinging so I am not really worried about if it doesn't mathematically equal out. I kinda doubt Mikeduster was looking to plug our numbers into his setup. I think he was looking for more of a guide line to start from and go from there.
Mopardude
Well-Known Member
I just reread what you wrote. How do you know it doesn't mathematically work out when you know nothing of my setup?
mikesduster
Well-Known Member
good question tim!!!
im looking for a BALLPARK figure...i have a pretty good combo that goes 12.00's in STREET TRIM and im looking for a little extra!!! :wink:
im looking for a BALLPARK figure...i have a pretty good combo that goes 12.00's in STREET TRIM and im looking for a little extra!!! :wink:
Mopardude
Well-Known Member
mikesduster said:
Thanks!!!
You know you don't need need a ball park figure! Just pull out your calculator and do the math. But seriously 12.00's aren't bad for street trim. Are you in the high or low 12's? I have a pretty punch out 360 and I have been told high to mid 12's for street trim if the car hooks up good (which it doesn't right now because rear end is the next thing I have to do) and if the tunning is right on.
So from what I can tell your trying to run a Vacuum Unit on your performance engine?
Is this the total number your giving us?
45* at cruise on a stock type motor is probably about right...if it's a 12 second car it should in no way have a vacuum unit on it, vacuum distributors are for your Mom's station wagon and should never be used on a preformance engine. They're for fuel economy not performance if you want fuel economy see you local Geo Metro Dealer if you want power tune your Mopar to all mechanical.
Initial timing numbers are determined by calculating the most timing you can run and the starter will still kick it over without breaking the nose off itself. The more cam you run the more initial you can dial into it.
These old Mopar V8's were never designed to run unleaded low octane fuels, the combustion chambers and ignition systems will not and can not burn this Pump Crap efficiently. Unless you convert the ignition and adjust your tune up to band aid this problem you will never get the optimum from your Muscle Car.
I took the Fish to a local Church car show yesterday, there was 3 Hemi cars, all 3 were running ORANGE Boxes. I spoke to the 2 owners (1 guy owned 2) and asked about their ignition, they all had them set at 10* initial with stock out of the box MP distributors (all in at 1600) and 30-32* total.
I asked how they ran "Hard to start, cold blooded, bog, best times from the 64 Plymouth was a 12.77"....their jaws dropped when they looked under the hood of the Fish....318 Iron headed, no juice and running 11.70's.
I proved my theory, we bumped the timing way up to about 20 initial on the 64, hit the starter and it jumped to life immediatly, idled clean and had at least double the throttle response. They just stared at it couldn't believe the difference. Of course it took the total to about 50 and they couldn't drive it without a recurve so we reset it and it started idling fat, stumbling, no throttle response...just a pig, sounded like a 390 FE Ford with a 2 Barrell and a bad cam.
We'll be doing all 3 distributors next week.
The best part, I personally get to smash 3 orange boxes with my 5 pound hammer on the steel work bench...I used to pull out my 41 Magnum and shoot them things before they could breed but the neighbors started complaining....orange corpes laying all over the place stinking up the neighborhood....now it Baaaammm... plunk in the trash can.
We got to fire engines at high noon....we won the loudest car award, in fact the MC claimed that the Fish was the loudest car he had ever heard?????....I cracked it to about 3500 max....is it really that loud?...it's just a 318?...sure made that 64 Hemi with open headers sound dismal..I think the guy was embarrassed....oh well.
Is this the total number your giving us?
45* at cruise on a stock type motor is probably about right...if it's a 12 second car it should in no way have a vacuum unit on it, vacuum distributors are for your Mom's station wagon and should never be used on a preformance engine. They're for fuel economy not performance if you want fuel economy see you local Geo Metro Dealer if you want power tune your Mopar to all mechanical.
Initial timing numbers are determined by calculating the most timing you can run and the starter will still kick it over without breaking the nose off itself. The more cam you run the more initial you can dial into it.
These old Mopar V8's were never designed to run unleaded low octane fuels, the combustion chambers and ignition systems will not and can not burn this Pump Crap efficiently. Unless you convert the ignition and adjust your tune up to band aid this problem you will never get the optimum from your Muscle Car.
I took the Fish to a local Church car show yesterday, there was 3 Hemi cars, all 3 were running ORANGE Boxes. I spoke to the 2 owners (1 guy owned 2) and asked about their ignition, they all had them set at 10* initial with stock out of the box MP distributors (all in at 1600) and 30-32* total.
I asked how they ran "Hard to start, cold blooded, bog, best times from the 64 Plymouth was a 12.77"....their jaws dropped when they looked under the hood of the Fish....318 Iron headed, no juice and running 11.70's.
I proved my theory, we bumped the timing way up to about 20 initial on the 64, hit the starter and it jumped to life immediatly, idled clean and had at least double the throttle response. They just stared at it couldn't believe the difference. Of course it took the total to about 50 and they couldn't drive it without a recurve so we reset it and it started idling fat, stumbling, no throttle response...just a pig, sounded like a 390 FE Ford with a 2 Barrell and a bad cam.
We'll be doing all 3 distributors next week.
The best part, I personally get to smash 3 orange boxes with my 5 pound hammer on the steel work bench...I used to pull out my 41 Magnum and shoot them things before they could breed but the neighbors started complaining....orange corpes laying all over the place stinking up the neighborhood....now it Baaaammm... plunk in the trash can.
We got to fire engines at high noon....we won the loudest car award, in fact the MC claimed that the Fish was the loudest car he had ever heard?????....I cracked it to about 3500 max....is it really that loud?...it's just a 318?...sure made that 64 Hemi with open headers sound dismal..I think the guy was embarrassed....oh well.
So I just re-read what you asked...sorry I need to pay attention I guess
To run 36 initial and 45 total in a mechanical distributor you would need to have a flat cam and 6:1 compression or a NAPA, Wells or Bad Orange box that is pulling 8-10* of timing out of the motor as soon as you load it.
I'm not doubting your car doesn't run, I'm just saying that something is wrong if it needs those numbers.
We run our 440, 9.8's second car at 36* lock down, initial and total.
We run the 318 11.70'sat 26/35 at 11.8 compression
Our 451 runs 10.30's 24/36 dome piston , 11.7 compression
Our Shop truck runs our ignition system at 15/34, stock 86 360 runs 16.90's (if it's a Dodge with wheels we'll race it) :thumrigh:
So if you look at these examples of correct ignition events for these various engine combinations and HP ranges you'll see that if your car is running those numbers there's something amiss here and it should be addessed before any damage occurs.
We dial in over 100 distributors a month, 75% Mopars, 20% Firds and the rest in Rambler and Chevy (Same thing aren't they?) Soory about the off brands but I promise we use their money to buy Mopar parts and then go out and spank them at the track....LOL
If you go to our spec sheet at:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/specsheet.html
Copy it and paste into a Email, send it to me and I'll give you some recommendations on your ignition system.
You may want to browse our tech section on Ignition and the section on Mopar Distributors at:
http://www.4secondsflat.com
Consider me gone until 9/13, we're all on our way to the Division 6 Finals in Mission BC, leaving this weds. but I'll get back to you when I return.
You can watch us race live at:
http://www.missionraceway.com/
Just click on the "WEBCAM" button on the top left of the page
Team Madras:
J685 Black 64 Valiant
A688 Fish Fry red/White/Blue
G642 S/Pro Times Flies Red Dart
If you can see the fenders as we turn the corner you'll probably be able to count over 50 cars at this race from various tracks all running our Ignition and or Fuel Systems.
I'll Chaulk in "A-Bodys Only" for you guys, Race of Champions begins noon Saturday, time trials at 9am. Friday, Sat and Sunday
To run 36 initial and 45 total in a mechanical distributor you would need to have a flat cam and 6:1 compression or a NAPA, Wells or Bad Orange box that is pulling 8-10* of timing out of the motor as soon as you load it.
I'm not doubting your car doesn't run, I'm just saying that something is wrong if it needs those numbers.
We run our 440, 9.8's second car at 36* lock down, initial and total.
We run the 318 11.70'sat 26/35 at 11.8 compression
Our 451 runs 10.30's 24/36 dome piston , 11.7 compression
Our Shop truck runs our ignition system at 15/34, stock 86 360 runs 16.90's (if it's a Dodge with wheels we'll race it) :thumrigh:
So if you look at these examples of correct ignition events for these various engine combinations and HP ranges you'll see that if your car is running those numbers there's something amiss here and it should be addessed before any damage occurs.
We dial in over 100 distributors a month, 75% Mopars, 20% Firds and the rest in Rambler and Chevy (Same thing aren't they?) Soory about the off brands but I promise we use their money to buy Mopar parts and then go out and spank them at the track....LOL
If you go to our spec sheet at:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/specsheet.html
Copy it and paste into a Email, send it to me and I'll give you some recommendations on your ignition system.
You may want to browse our tech section on Ignition and the section on Mopar Distributors at:
http://www.4secondsflat.com
Consider me gone until 9/13, we're all on our way to the Division 6 Finals in Mission BC, leaving this weds. but I'll get back to you when I return.
You can watch us race live at:
http://www.missionraceway.com/
Just click on the "WEBCAM" button on the top left of the page
Team Madras:
J685 Black 64 Valiant
A688 Fish Fry red/White/Blue
G642 S/Pro Times Flies Red Dart
If you can see the fenders as we turn the corner you'll probably be able to count over 50 cars at this race from various tracks all running our Ignition and or Fuel Systems.
I'll Chaulk in "A-Bodys Only" for you guys, Race of Champions begins noon Saturday, time trials at 9am. Friday, Sat and Sunday
Mopardude
Well-Known Member
Ok thanks Cuda66273 for better explaining! I was kinda annoyed at you with your first post but I see where you are coming from now. I am going to fill out your spec sheet and email it to you. I am more interested in getting a different carb because I am running to fat of one now which is could the reasoning of some of my whacky numbers. Although I am running the nasty orange box as you put it and would listen to any other suggestion on ignition.
Tom1951
Well-Known Member
I will backup Cuda66273. He helped me with my 440. The FBO Ignition
ECU and the recurved Mopar distributor have brought my Dart to life. :thumleft:
ECU and the recurved Mopar distributor have brought my Dart to life. :thumleft:
AdamR
Big Member
Tom welcome to the group.
Does anyone know how the old Direct Connection tach drive mech. advance dist are set up curve wise ? I put one in my car and the differance in throttle responce is unreal. All I need to do know is loose the edelbrock carb
Does anyone know how the old Direct Connection tach drive mech. advance dist are set up curve wise ? I put one in my car and the differance in throttle responce is unreal. All I need to do know is loose the edelbrock carb
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