To Stroke, or not to Stroke

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chlngr1970

chlngr1970

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So, I have been planning on stroking a 400 for my Duster for I don't know HOW long, and now I am down to it. Today I picked up a complete 440. So, now I have a 400 that I can stroke out, and a 440 that I can just drop in. I like the idea of a B engine and the added clearance. The plan is take the B engine, strip it and send it to the machine shop. Next spring, when I get my next stock bonus ( It's a long story, but I call it a bonus ) I get the stroker kit from 440source.com. Summer time will be filled with much cussing and breaking of knuckles as I muscle that engine into my Duster, along with:
  • TTI Try Y headers
  • MP 292/.509 cam
  • Holly 750, or B engine 6 Pac :D
  • 452 heads worked over
  • If a 4bbl, probably an Edelbrock or MP Dual plane intake ( might just do that till I can get the 6 Pac :D )
  • 2.5" dual exhaust dumping at the rear axel
  • 391 Sure Grip 8.75, or a 4.10 Dana :D
  • MP Electronic Ignition
you know, all the necessary goodies to make a good B engine A body :D

That will leave me with the 340...thinking of the Demon for that. I had two Demon 340s in the past that I lost due to misfortune :( and really want to make this one count.

I guess the big question here is, is stroking necessary to get the Duster into the Solid 11 second territory? If I went with a moderate compression 400, and a good build, would that do it? AND, is the RB THAT much more of a pain over the B engine, or for that matter, would I gain the necessary power for 11s without the added expense of stroking the B engine?

Thank God I don't have to make this decision right now, and have plenty of time to do the research. This is NOTHING like designing my Home Theater... That was simple compaired to this!8)
 
Consider that no matter which block you go with, cubic inches are the easiest, most reliable way to make power......

And, while there are clearance issues with the 440, there are different ones with the B-block. I haven't found either to be too challenging.
 
bigger is better, make that 400 a 512. 440 source has the whole kit with the tri-armor bearings ready to go.
 
I Put a 451 stroker in my 73 duster over the summer...and yes....once all the cussing and cuts and bruises are done with..I am glad i did it. I have not run her yet, but i gaurantee that there is 11 sec. potential in an A-body for sure/....well that is what i am hoping for
 
moparsegura said:
bigger is better, make that 400 a 512. 440 source has the whole kit with the tri-armor bearings ready to go.
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Thanks a bunch! I picked up on that yesterday, but forgot to mention I was considering it in my OP.

rmchrgr said:
This article might help you decide.

451 Manifesto
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THAT was awesome! It looks like I can really put all three motors to good use. The 400 stroked in the Duster, the 340 in the Demon, the 440 in the truck, and the 318 from the truck in the Dart...making it a driver.

One question I have is what kind of block prep does the 400 require for the stroker kit, weather it be a 451 or 512?

j
 
chlngr1970 said:
One question I have is what kind of block prep does the 400 require for the stroker kit, weather it be a 451 or 512?

j
Click to expand...

Not a lot really. I THINK maybe just at the bottom of the bore if you go for a bigger stroke but to the best of my knowledge it's minimal.
 
I'd run a different camshaft. Unless you already have teh 509 cam, I'd look elsewhere for a camshaft. There are much better cams available than the .509. Plus that 509 will act like a much smaller camshaft in a 500" engine. You can put a bigger cam in the engine because the cubes will suck up lift and duration.

You don't mention convertor/stick?

Anything from a 470-512 using the B block is a good deal.

There is at least one 71-72 Dart running 11.50's with a 400 engine around. Not sure if 383man from the moparts board is over here. His son has a 400 in a Dart that runs that number.
 
Tranny info is kinda important, huh? ;)

I have a short shaft 727, but was looking at a 727 from Mancini Racing, or even an OD for drivability. I was looking at the Turbo Action 10" Super Street converter if I go 727...I'm really undecided at this point.

As for cam, what would you suggest? For the 451, it was suggested I use the 284/.484 cam, but thought the 509 would be better for the larger CID. I have a 284 cam in my 340 that just rumbles real nice :D The car does not have power brakes, but will have vacuum secondaries, or, a 6 Pac.

Anther thing I am considering is upping the size of the rear brakes, from 10" to 11".

Like I said, good thing I Have plenty of time to get all the decisions made, cause there are a lot just in the power train, and drive train...

j
 
I too am starting a 451 build, I was thinking along the same lines camwise as you so I am curious about what he said. I was planning the same type of build, 906 heads ported and polished, tri-y's, stock 440 rods, eagle balanced crank, 789DD on a weiand big single plane. Same gearing with a shiftkit 727 and an 8 3/4 possi. Are you thinking that the .509 isn't big enough for the 451?
 
Stockish ported heads and a 500" engine will run out of steam around 5000 and if lucky around 5300-5500.

I would suggest that if you are going to build something, call someone like Brian at Indio Motor Machine (760) 342-2178 and get a camshaft suggestion based upon the entire build. He's a Comp dealer and can get any grind from teh catalog including custom stuff.
 
Sheesh:

If you can't run mid 11s with that thing, I'd push it off a cliff. I bet you'd do a lot less kicking yourself in the jewels if you did a good build on a small block and spent some of the leftover money on chassis.

How much power does it take to run in the 11s with a 3000 pound car? 350 - 400? A big block is probably the worst thing you can do to your 60' time.

Transmission and chassis/suspension are more important to running a good number than horsepower. If you don't have chassis, all horsepower does is slow down your 60' time and increase your mph.

Steve
 
This is the 4th time I have tried to post this.

Ignoring the post above, I sent an inquiry to comp cams. I'm waiting to hear back from them. I want an 11 second street car. This is why I am going this direction. Easier power. If I could, I'd put an OD trans behind it and go with more gear. Say, 4.56, or 4.88. I had 4.88's with my 340, but freeway driving was a *****.

Anyway...that's it in a nutshell.

j
 
chlngr - Sorry, I'm not following you really well. You want an 11 second street car? The small block stroked would be the easiest, and has a longer stroke than any factory engine. Stroke = usable power. With an LA, you dont have to change much else. 11s is fast regardless, so some upgrades to brakes are needed. the big blocks are cool, btu a lot more $$ just to get them in there and running. Just my $.02, but I would decide what you want to go with by how much you honestly have to spend.
 
moper said:
chlngr - Sorry, I'm not following you really well. You want an 11 second street car? The small block stroked would be the easiest, and has a longer stroke than any factory engine. Stroke = usable power.
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So, a stroked small block will have more power than a stroked big block? Am I understanding this?
With an LA, you dont have to change much else. 11s is fast regardless, so some upgrades to brakes are needed.
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I have the front disc brakes from a late model A-Body. I am also going to upgrade the rears to either 11" drum, or the Discs from MP.
the big blocks are cool, btu a lot more $$ just to get them in there and running. Just my $.02, but I would decide what you want to go with by how much you honestly have to spend.
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I don't have a problem spending the money, it's just going to take longer to complete the project. I imagine that nothing else on this project is going to be cheap, why should the BB conversion be? Besides, I'll have two other small block cars and my truck to keep me company while I build the Duster. ;)

j
 
The small block will have as much or as little as anything else. In terms of expense, you dont have to change the trans or driveshaft or mounts or headers or radiator (assuming it's all decent now). The big block strokers can go to 4.25 easy. But headers for B wedges are expensive, and the intake choices for MW port heads are limited too. dont waste your time with rear brakes until you upgrade the fronts to something better. If you're cruising mostly and not racing it a lot, factory disc/10" drums are fine. The difference in budgets for similar results is going to be within 20% either way.
 
I guess I can't wrap my head arround the idea that a small block will perform as well as as equally treated big block. That kind of goes against the idea that there is no replacement for displacement. I will concede that a big block conversion will be more expensive than a small block replacement, but if I am going to the expense of changing a lot anyway, and I have always wanted a big block A-Body, why not? If I spend 3K on a 512 stroker 400 short block, and another 1500 on aluminum heads, that same money won't net me more power, and more importantly, more torque, if spent on a comparably equiped small block. I have found a complete 400 engine, and short shaft 727 for $400. I have found the stroker kit from 440source.com and have heard they are a good place. That is $2K. If I spend $600 on cam/lifters and bock prep/misc. parts, that is 3K for a short block. They also have a pair of aluminum heads for $900. Another $600 in head prep, and I have a nice set of aluminum heads. Will this take me a lot of money? Sure. Will a small block be less expensive to build? I haven't seen kits for small block strokers, so I can't say for sure. Could I build a small bock to make the power of a 512 CID B Engine? Sure...but how much would it be?

My trans is in fairly good shape, I think. It probably needs freshing up, which is why I will be doing that when I put it in my Demon. Same with my 340. I'll probably just transfer over my drive trane and exhaust system from my Duster now to the Demon when I get it here. Once I get the Duster stripped down for the body shop, it is all going to be replaced anyway. Building a solid foundation is what I am going for. This includes subframe connectors, Dana rear end, front disc brakes, and larger drum brakes, or disc, heavier springs, better tortion bars...a good, solid chassis for a go fast car. I am also considering a 12 pt roll cage for added safety, and rigidity. Is this a bit much for a street car? Maybe, but I have alwas gone a little overboard. Hell, I even want an 18 seat home theater :D

I guess I got mezmorized by the pro-street cars of yor, and still want one. Yes, I am considering tubbing and narrowing my Dana and running 31/13s :D

Anyway...I guess if you take the rest of the conversion into account, you might be able to get a small block to do 11's with the same money as a big block conversion.

j
 
I`ve heard good things about the 400`s. I did a 60 over 383 with a 3.75 stroke. I`ve now got a 40 over 440 with a 4.15 stroke and I love the car!!! Above all ,the greatest improvement to the driveability of my car was the 5 spd. OD transmission. I can`t say enough about it. You`ve got so many choices, I don`t know what I`d do if I was in your shoes. Probably go BIG!
 
With a big motor, it will only make as much power as the heads allow it to. If you put the same set of heads on a 400, 451 and 512, they will make generally the same power but the bigger ones will have more torque, which isn't a bad thing, but if you want that big horsepower number you're gonna have to step up to some eddy/ stealth heads as a minimum. A ported alum head will probably give you 100-150 more hp than iron heads when you get over 500 cubic inches. Go to comp cams and download their engine simulation program, its free. play with different sizes and camshafts before you go too far in your project.
 
I know im treadin on some opinions about stroker motors, but why stroke a bb when theres ton of power/torque in a good old 440? and clearance concerning fenderwell headers fit and have less clearance problems on 440 blk vs 400 blk been there done it and like my 440 with fenderwells and as far as perf goes and money and bang 4 the bucks I will stay with 440 though Ive had some 340s that were awesome performers... talking about economics 10-11's is not hard in a-body rb mopar with of the shelf parts---non stroker,no bottle etc. MAY BE OLD SCHOOL BUT IT STILL KICKS BUT.....just my 10 cents worth
 
I just put 3.91 stroke crank in a 400 block, its 470" The crank dropped right in with no grinding, any longer of a stroke and I would have had to do some grinding on the block. The rods 6.535" long and I used an off the shelf Keith Black piston. This is a street/strip engine so I wanted a reasonable rod stroke ratio and a piston that wasn't too short. So far it seams good but it hasn't been to the strip yet.
 
rbdart said:
I know im treadin on some opinions about stroker motors, but why stroke a bb when theres ton of power/torque in a good old 440? and clearance concerning fenderwell headers fit and have less clearance problems on 440 blk vs 400 blk been there done it and like my 440 with fenderwells and as far as perf goes and money and bang 4 the bucks I will stay with 440 though Ive had some 340s that were awesome performers... talking about economics 10-11's is not hard in a-body rb mopar with of the shelf parts---non stroker,no bottle etc. MAY BE OLD SCHOOL BUT IT STILL KICKS BUT.....just my 10 cents worth
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At the time, I didn't have a 440. Now that I have one, I may change my mind, but I will probably go with the 451 Stroker, if not the 512. I just need to find out if there is more block prep for the 512. If it is a drop in deal, like they claim, I don't see why I don't go with the 512. As for headers, I want to go with chassis exit, not fenderwell. I don't want to cut my fenderwells, unless I need to to put in a 12 point roll cage. Like I have said before, this is going to be a long term project. I will probably change my mind several times, but only time, and money will tell.

j
 
It`s been a while since I did my B engine stroker but I remember that (when the cubes get high) some of the pistons in those kits had to use special oil support rings because the wrist pin positioning was very high on the piston. That may be something to consider when choosing one. There`s been a lot of kits that have come out in the last few years so that may not be an issue anymore.
 
From 440source.com:
Turn that unwanted old 400 "smog" motor into one of the most awesome stroker motors you can build! You'll hardly be able to contain the massive torque and horsepower gained by adding an incredible 112 cubic inches to your 400 "B" block! The low deck, 4.250" stroke version of our Platinum Series crank used in this kit has the smaller 2.200" (big block Chevy sized) journals, and the counterweights are finished at the smaller "B" engine size, to ensure they will drop right into the block with no counterweight clearancing issues. Depending on the block used, many of customers find this kit drops right in with no modifications whatsoever!
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This is what I am talking about, about maybe not having to do any block machining :D

j
 
Yeah , I`ve talked with Brandon at 440source and he`s the man when it comes to stroker kits and a heck of a nice guy. "No modifications whatsoever", that says it all. Many kits require at least a little grinding at the base of each cylinder for rod clearance. A lot of progress has been made with stroker kits and it looks like 440source has just about every one available now. Last time I spoke with Brandon he had just received the first set of those Stealth heads and was heading off to find out what sort of numbers they would make. I could tell he was really excited. I thought about buying a set but it took a long time from conception of the head to actually having a working model. By the time they were finally ready for marketing I had already bought another set.
 
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