Torsion bars
- Thread starter 64cudaV8
- Start date
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straightlinespeed
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
I have to say yes and yes.
BigBlockMopar
BigBlockMember
Shocks going soft are way more likely than a torsion bar, as it's hard spring steel.
Replace the shocks first and the ride will probably have improved enough again. You can always turn up the torsion bars a bit.
Better (more expensive) shocks do a better job of controlling the suspension movements.
And yes, the cars' springs were setup kinda soft in those days.
It's popular these days to step up the springrates of the bars to almost what you'd expect to find in a modernday car.
Replace the shocks first and the ride will probably have improved enough again. You can always turn up the torsion bars a bit.
Better (more expensive) shocks do a better job of controlling the suspension movements.
And yes, the cars' springs were setup kinda soft in those days.
It's popular these days to step up the springrates of the bars to almost what you'd expect to find in a modernday car.
straightlinespeed
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Yes the bars get weak. Think about how old they are and how much work they have done. Typically you will see the cars front end begin to drop, lean to one side more than another or be bouncy like you noticed. No, I dont believe they were soft and bouncy to begin with. Somewhat soft, but not overly soft. There are some great company's that sell new bars PST who is a Vendor on here and we get a 10% discount for being FABO members, Firm Feel, and Just Suspension are to name a few aftermarket bar companies if your looking to upgrade someday.
I just purchased some bars from PST. Originally my Scamp came with .870" bars. I upgraded to 1.03" bars which from what I've researched will give it a more modern feel type of ride. The bars are specific for left and right sides but not front to back although, again thru research I found that the numbers stamped on one end of the bar is suppose to go towards the back of the car.
I have the entire front suspension out right now. I still have the torsion bars hangin underneath because I didn't want to mix them up if they were side specific. I think I'll just install them back in with the new shocks and what not. If its still too soft of a ride I will change them out eventually. Not looking to build a race car. So I'm not looking for the high performance aspect.
straightlinespeed
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Nothing wrong with that. If you clean off the end of the bars you will see some numbers stamped in them, I think yours will say 830. Like stated get some good shocks, if your not happy with it then at least you already broke them loose and they will be easy to remove again.
Technically, the bars do not get weak.
In fact, the spring rate does NOT change as the bars age. Those horribly soft bars were exactly like that from the factory.
They do sag, so, as time passes the car will get lower, and need more turns on the torsion bar adjusters to maintain ride height. Similar to leaf springs- the spring rate doesn't change, but they lose their arch over time.
But these cars really were that horribly undersprung from the factory.
In fact, the spring rate does NOT change as the bars age. Those horribly soft bars were exactly like that from the factory.
They do sag, so, as time passes the car will get lower, and need more turns on the torsion bar adjusters to maintain ride height. Similar to leaf springs- the spring rate doesn't change, but they lose their arch over time.
But these cars really were that horribly undersprung from the factory.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
bouncing sounds like bad shocks to me.. and yes there is a left and right..
i would put biigger bars in while its apart. its a money well spent upgrade.
i would put biigger bars in while its apart. its a money well spent upgrade.
2 Darts
A-body Addicted
Yes. Over time they sag. Cracks in the painted surface followed by exposure to salt will eventually cause rust to occur, weakening the torsion bar. This is why so many repair manuals caution would be mechanics not to scratch them.
Not directly. This is more related to worn shock absorbers. As a torsion bar sags, the front end of the car lowers reducing the jounce (upward travel) available to the wheel. In extreme cases, the LCA winds up on the bump stop forcing the sidewall of the tires to take on the spring role.
Not per se. You won't see an L or R anywhere on a factory torsion bar. The left and right bars have different numbers stamped into the rear-end of the bar. In my experience, the LH bar has an odd number, and the RH bar has an even number. It should correspond with what is on the build sheet.
BigBlockMopar
BigBlockMember
No L or R on a factory bar, really? ;)
The bars do get weak. They are just like springs which fatigue with age and wear and get weaker and loose some of their spring rate.....
C130 Chief
Mechanical Genius
The spring rate of the bar does not significantly change or get "softer", but will deform after many cycles. To compensate the factory put an adjuster on one end. Eventually the spring will fatigue and break, but at the point of failure the spring material will be harder (stiffer) than the rest of the spring.
As others have said, these cars were, by current standards, quite undersprung from the factory. They really were that soft. Add worn shocks and suspension components and sloppy handling is the result. What condition is the rest of your front end in? Even a basic front end rebuild will produce a "night and day" difference. Since your front end is "bouncy" it shows that the torsion bars are working just fine (it also shows that your shocks are shot).
Assuming you aren't made of money, I would suggest you do the following: First, rebuild the front end with quality parts and good shocks (rear spring bushings and shocks too). Next step would be to add a front sway bar (huge difference). Then consider replacing the torsion bars, .870-.920 fine for cruising, something more like 1.00 for performance handling. Along the way you'll want to consider front disk brakes (I'd do this with the front end rebuild or soon thereafter), and a wheel/tire upgrade. Be honest about your budget and what you plan to use the car for.
As others have said, these cars were, by current standards, quite undersprung from the factory. They really were that soft. Add worn shocks and suspension components and sloppy handling is the result. What condition is the rest of your front end in? Even a basic front end rebuild will produce a "night and day" difference. Since your front end is "bouncy" it shows that the torsion bars are working just fine (it also shows that your shocks are shot).
Assuming you aren't made of money, I would suggest you do the following: First, rebuild the front end with quality parts and good shocks (rear spring bushings and shocks too). Next step would be to add a front sway bar (huge difference). Then consider replacing the torsion bars, .870-.920 fine for cruising, something more like 1.00 for performance handling. Along the way you'll want to consider front disk brakes (I'd do this with the front end rebuild or soon thereafter), and a wheel/tire upgrade. Be honest about your budget and what you plan to use the car for.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
i'd say .920 minimum for even just cruising.
This is false. The spring rate does not change significantly. That's why you can have leaf springs re-arched. You can even have torsion bars reconditioned by Firm Feel. That would not be possible if the springs lost rate. The spring constant of the metal is not based on its age or use, it is determined by its metallurgic composition.
Exactly. I would say no smaller than 1" torsion bars though. 1" bars are still pretty compliant, and give a good ride quality with quality shocks. I had 1" bars on my Duster for awhile, upgraded them to 1.12" bars to get the performance I wanted.
Ben Drinkin
Hey bartender!
I'm entirely sure nobody gives 2 ****$, but I just removed my first set of torsion bars.. Thanks to FABO for enough descriptions to make it a relatively easy job...
Yes. Should be an even number on the right and an odd number on the left.
C130 Chief
Mechanical Genius
Time to get under the car with a screwdriver and some gumout and scrape the crud off the numbers on the rear ends of your bars...
888/889 .830" 85 lb/in (base slant 6)
890/891 .850" 90 lb/in (base V-8)
892/893 .870" 98 lb/in (HD V-8, Formula S)
894/895 .890" 108 lb/in (67-69 big block)
There were also .920" "police" bars, 1976 only. You probably don't have those. In fact, pretty sure the biggest front bars in 1964 were .850" and I'd bet that's what you have.
I've logged plenty of miles with 9" drums, .850" t-bars and 13" wheels under an early A body. OK for put-putting around the neighborhood, but pretty much inadequate for modern city traffic. In fact, a lot of the reason my car is off the road now is an overdue front end rebuild and brake upgrade (plus a total lack of cash to make it happen).
888/889 .830" 85 lb/in (base slant 6)
890/891 .850" 90 lb/in (base V-8)
892/893 .870" 98 lb/in (HD V-8, Formula S)
894/895 .890" 108 lb/in (67-69 big block)
There were also .920" "police" bars, 1976 only. You probably don't have those. In fact, pretty sure the biggest front bars in 1964 were .850" and I'd bet that's what you have.
I've logged plenty of miles with 9" drums, .850" t-bars and 13" wheels under an early A body. OK for put-putting around the neighborhood, but pretty much inadequate for modern city traffic. In fact, a lot of the reason my car is off the road now is an overdue front end rebuild and brake upgrade (plus a total lack of cash to make it happen).
Trjohn57
Member
Mine have a L and R on the ends that came off of my 67 Barracuda.
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