Trans Kickdown Linkage Guru Sought

[Lonewolf3165]

65Val & OMM, I hear ya! And you're right.

 

[4spdragtop]

I could be chiming in here when I am not needed. Im not technical by any means, but what caught my eye in the 1st 2 pics, why in the 1st pic is the front of the slot touching the stud when it looks like its threaded all the way out?? 2nd pic its only threaded partway out and only partway in the slot??? Am I missing something here?? To me it looks like the 2 pics are showing 2 different scenarios???


Oops I see 2 different carb setups, 1st is Eddy and 2nd is TQ...with the TQ, looks like you have lots of thread left??

Dad and I used the #1481 adapter on his Eddy 1405(same as 1406) with all factory pieces...kickdown etc. His setup is 273 4bbl/904

 

[64ragtop]

Well, thank you Oldmanmopar! I'm still not sure just what pieces went into making up the kickdown on my ragtop. For example, there's no place to insert the rod to align the linkage that's mentioned in every FSM I've seen. Your info on the geometry of the system being changed by the lengths of the levers was enlightening. This self serving quote from the Bouchillon site addresses that: "The ONLY Cable Kit On The Market That Already Figures Out & Gives You ALL The Travels & Ratios, ... Perfect Install, Mounting, & Adjustment. ... " I think using a cable instead of the multi part linkage results in only having to match the travel of the carb stud with the transmission lever. I'm gonna try extending that rod, as I don't have a lift and working alone in my driveway isn't safe. And it's gotta be safety first for me!

ATB

BC

 

[Bulldozer]

OK, so if it's not needed, why would a company build one, and keep on building AND selling them if they weren't needed???

because a lot of times people keep telling people they need something when really they dont. thats by no means directed at you, im just sayin'

It is needed in some cases, other times it isn't. Just depends on the setup. Just because a company makes and sells something doesn't mean everyone needs it.

exactly

Perfect example of a linkage setup that does not require the adapter.

everything hooked right up just using the throttle shaft off my 2 barrel. i have done the same with my 360 using a holley.

 

[66durgederp]

cool, thanks, that was the last thing in line that i could think of, was governor springs. ive had similar escapades as well with kickdowns. my holley 4175 spreadbore that was sold in the aftermarket world needed the holley adapter to work with the 3 piece kickdown, 318/904, but didnt with my chrysler, 400/727 with a one piece rod. Then on the flipside my 600 cfm 4160 from a 289 ferd, doesnt need any adapter at all...

 

[Oldmanmopar]

It is the weight of the Governor piston more than spring. The heavier the piston the less centrifugal force it takes to open the passage for the shift while in the kick down . This causes an early shift while flat out. . The lighter the piston the longer it holds the gear. This only controls the shift in kick down mode. These light governors only came on 340's and max wedge/Ram chargers, Can easily be made out of a heavy one. I have some for pics if needed. You only need to lighten it up.

The part throttle servo down shifts the trans when ever it feels a load or pressure change under pull. I loved putting these the on north east muscle cars back in the day. They did not come with this because of uncontrollable tire spin on slippery surfaces. This an easy addition to the valve body it is only 3 screws.

cool, thanks, that was the last thing in line that i could think of, was governor springs. ive had similar escapades as well with kickdowns. my holley 4175 spreadbore that was sold in the aftermarket world needed the holley adapter to work with the 3 piece kickdown, 318/904, but didnt with my chrysler, 400/727 with a one piece rod. Then on the flipside my 600 cfm 4160 from a 289 ferd, doesnt need any adapter at all...

 

[66durgederp]

thank you OMM! if you could send a few pictures id muchly appreciate it! my list of shenanigans to do is growing haha I suppose since this drivetrain was made to do 125 mph with 2.94's then it would only make sense it has heavy gov. pistons wouldnt it? I mean...you dont really want a 2nd gear downshift doing 80+....

 

[Johnny Dart]

.....

 

[Johnny Dart]

You need this adapter as well, to provide the proper "arc" for the KD to travel through...

You also need to correct your fast-idle cam issue on that AFB in then top pic.
.

For an Ede carb,you are 100% correct...I believe someone owes you an apology.
Or you can Jimmy Rig it.
if your using a thermoquad, i believe it already has the correct linkage.

 

[fishy68]

You are 100% correct...I believe someone owes you an apology.
Or you can Jimmy Rig it.

I wasn't going to reply any more but since you think I need to apologize I guess I will. I stand by my position that this throttle adapter alone will not cure all the linkage issues he has. Did you look at his pictures of how the throttle cable is already so far in it nearly touches the carb now? How would it possibly work when adding another part that moves the cable out even farther?? By then the cable would be at a 45 degree angle to the linkage! He may need this part but he needs the correct throttle bracket first.

 

[Johnny Dart]

It's hard to tell what bracket he is using.
But this usually is the case when you use a 2bbl bracket with a 4bbl carb.

 

[65Val]

No apologies necessary. Johnny's pic shows it correctly...As you can see, the adapter doesn't just move the stud out, it puts everything in the right spot for functionality.... Thanks for the great pic , Johnny!!!

 

[Johnny Dart]

I wasn't going to reply any more but since you think I need to apologize I guess I will. I stand by my position that this throttle adapter alone will not cure all the linkage issues he has. Did you look at his pictures of how the throttle cable is already so far in it nearly touches the carb now? How would it possibly work when adding another part that moves the cable out even farther?? By then the cable would be at a 45 degree angle to the linkage! He may need this part but he needs the correct throttle bracket first.

And as far as this bracket not curing all his problems,I will stand right next to you Fishy. There are a few parts necessary for this setup.

 

[Johnny Dart]

No apologies necessary. Johnny's pic shows it correctly...As you can see, the adapter doesn't just move the stud out, it puts everything in the right spot for functionality.... Thanks for the great pic , Johnny!!!

No problem 65....Couldn't leave you hanging. Just trying to keep it real.

 

[64ragtop]

Looks like my Frankenlinkage and attempts to get the K/D to work properly are back in focus.

... I stand by my position that this throttle adapter alone will not cure all the linkage issues he has. Did you look at his pictures of how the throttle cable is already so far in it nearly touches the carb now? How would it possibly work when adding another part that moves the cable out even farther?? By then the cable would be at a 45 degree angle to the linkage! He may need this part but he needs the correct throttle bracket first.

This thread has been kinda confusing, to me at least. Part of the confusion comes from the first two pics I posted back at the start of the thread, and the well intended comments from folks who know much more than I. The first pic was "as found" Edelbrock 1406 and throttle bracket and kickdown linkage pieced together from unknown parts, no Eddy adaptor, and parts bent to sorta work. The carb stud was at the front of the K/D rod, and I didn't know any better.

I blacksmithed the throttle cable bracket to align the cable with the TQ linkage when I retired the Eddy carb.

The second pic is just a couple of weeks ago. The ThermoQuad is a good bit wider than the 1406, and has the correct linkage. No adaptor needed. The discussion then centered on the length of the K/D rod and I tried to lengthen it with the fitting on the end. It would only go about halfway back, as the pic shows.

As the knowledgeable contributors said, the carb stud needs to rest at the back of the slot of the end piece of the K/D rod. I found another adjustment point on the intermediate rod that runs from the upper to the lower bellcrank. Tweeking that effectively lengthened the upper rod so the carb stud now rests at the rear of the slot, and the rod moves toward the firewall when the throttle begins to open.

Johnny D's beautiful pic shows the intermediate rod with the adjustment at the upper end. It also shows the angle of his upper bellcrank to be much narrower that mine. In fact his bellcrank is much narrower than mine, which is as wide as the valve cover and the angle of the two arms of the bellcrank is quite different.

The first pic is the alignment of the throttle cable and the TQ. The second is the bracket and upper bellcrank that was on the car when I bought it, and still is. I hope that helps.

ATB

BC

 

[Johnny Dart]

The biggest problem is when we take 2bbl parts and try to bend,fold,weld,lengthen,ect them to work for a 4bbl. The top kickdown rod,and the cable bracket are both different,between the two.
Many times there are guys on the site that go from a 2bbl to a 4bbl,and ask why doesn't my linkage work or line up right ? And then they show a pic of a 2bbl cable bracket on a 4bbl.

Trust me,I'm all for bending,fabricating,using my mind to make things work. That's great.But if you really want it to operate the way the factory did,you have to use the correct parts. I'm not sure what bracket you have,but if I read correctly,you bent it to get in the position it is in.

If I could give you any advice I would start on just the engine linkage.
Learn the difference between a 2bbl throttle bracket and a 4bbl bracket.
You will find out that a 2bbl bracket holds the cable horizontal and a 4bbl holds it vertical.
Get the correct 4 bbl bracket.
Then I would learn the difference between a 2bbl kickdown rod and a 4bbl.
The 2bbl is bent towards the intake,the 4bbl is bent towards the drivers fender.
Get the correct 4bbl rod. Which I have by the way.

Once you get the top of the motor squared away,then we can work on the bottom.
Hope this helps.

 

[Moparparts]

I have one of those adapters if you still need it PM me

65, Your link just takes me to a picture, no part info. I looked around the streetperformancusa website and didn't find anything similar. How would I attach it to my ThermoQuad and how would it provide the proper arc for the KD, please?

The carb in that first pic is the Eddy 1406 that came on a 1' high adaptor to fit the Thermoquad manifold. It's gathering dust in the garage.

Another poster said I need an Edelbrock 1481. I bought one of those when I thought I was gonna use the 1406. It seems to be basically a spacer to move the eddy throttle plate out to where the KD linkage operates. The P.O. had just bent the KD linkage to meet up with the 1406. The ThermoQuad is wider than the Eddy and its throttle lines up with the KD linkage.

I truly do appreciate all the input, folks. For now I'm just gonna stretch that KD rod and see what that does. Thank you all.

ATB

BC

 

[64ragtop]

The biggest problem is when we take 2bbl parts and try to bend,fold,weld,lengthen,ect them to work for a 4bbl. The top kickdown rod,and the cable bracket are both different,between the two.
Many times there are guys on the site that go from a 2bbl to a 4bbl,and ask why doesn't my linkage work or line up right ? And then they show a pic of a 2bbl cable bracket on a 4bbl.

Well, at least I wasn't the first! Wanna bet that I won't be the last?

Trust me,I'm all for bending,fabricating,using my mind to make things work. That's great.But if you really want it to operate the way the factory did,you have to use the correct parts. I'm not sure what bracket you have,but if I read correctly,you bent it to get in the position it is in.

10-4, good buddy! and I understand needing the correct parts for it to operate the way the factory designed it. Those engineers drew the diagrams by hand, no C.A.D. programs for them. With all the correct parts and following the Factory Service Manual, they work. I obviously don't have the correct parts, thus the blacksmith method. At the same time, I think following the Manuals methods and diagrams as closely as possible will give the best results.

If I could give you any advice I would start on just the engine linkage....(A) 2bbl bracket holds the cable horizontal and a 4bbl holds it vertical....

(T)he difference between a 2bbl kickdown rod and a 4bbl.
The 2bbl is bent towards the intake,the 4bbl is bent towards the drivers fender. Get the correct 4bbl rod. Which I have by the way.
Once you get the top of the motor squared away,then we can work on the bottom. Hope this helps.

Your knowledge and experience is much appreciated. I cannot for the life of me understand how pointing the throttle cable vertically, rather than in alignment with the clevis on the throttle stud would be better. I can't see, in your pics, how that vertical position is done.

As for the upper rod, would just bending the rod I have outward, toward the drivers fender accomplish the same result as getting the correct one? It may not be exactly the correct length, but it should be within the range of adjustment, I think.

Moving on TOWARD the bottom of the motor, one challenge I face is that the intermediate rod between the bellcranks is so short that it's very difficult to get my hand down there to adjust the connector. There is also the issue of the wide upper bellcrank, though I don't know if that's a problem. The angles between the bellcranks pivot and the two arms may, or may not be the same as the angles on the narrow bellcranks like yours.

Then there's the question of how the lower bellcrank, the connecting rod and the transmission lever are configured. Whatever needs done there is gonna have to wait 'til I have a lift available, 'cause I aint working under a car in an uneven driveway. My LATE friend George did that ONCE!

Thanks again for the expertise! I'm not saying that my blacksmith method is just as good as the factory method and correct parts. I just want the kickdown to function like it's supposed to. A cable kickdown conversion eliminates all these rod lengths an arm angles, and my car is a driver, so correctness isn't an issue.

ATB

BC

 

[4spdragtop]

Chk my ID thread out here, there is a bracket and a bellcrank that MIGHT work..
I need the shiny/clean set...look at the blue bracket and the rusty bellcrank
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1969797447#post1969797447

 

[4spdragtop]

Just took a look at this thread from the beginning. If you take a look on the 1st page, Oldmanmopar posted pics..his 2nd pic with the blue(2bbl) and orange(4bbl) setups side by side...see how the brackets are different where the thread cable is clamped down?? I didnt know this till now either..Thanks OMM...also look at the bellcrank...different angles between the pair of them....thanks guys/gals!

 

[fishy68]

This thread has been kinda confusing, to me at least. Part of the confusion comes from the first two pics I posted back at the start of the thread, and the well intended comments from folks who know much more than I. The first pic was "as found" Edelbrock 1406 and throttle bracket and kickdown linkage pieced together from unknown parts, no Eddy adaptor, and parts bent to sorta work. The carb stud was at the front of the K/D rod, and I didn't know any better.

I blacksmithed the throttle cable bracket to align the cable with the TQ linkage when I retired the Eddy carb.
BC

I has become very confusing to me too because I never saw in your original post where you mentioned replacing the Eddy carb with a TQ. I thought you just posted the 2nd picture to show how things were supposed to look.

My appologies if my posts were confusing as I was saying what I thought you needed to make the Eddy carb work correct.

I also appologize to anyone else (65Val, etc..) I might have offended or sounded rude to. That wasn't my intent. Just trying to help the OP the best I thought.

 

[64ragtop]

fishy68, apology accepted. I appreciate all the help and advice I've gotten since my original post. On one hand, it seems the thread has dragged on for too long. On the other hand, it's just taken this long for me to begin to understand and appreciate the complexity and the interaction of the several pieces of the K/D linkage.

Then there is the problem of finding the correct pieces and assembling them correctly, not just for appearance sake but function properly together. I've tried blacksmithing the parts I have on hand and following the Factory Service Manuals as best I can trying to get the system to function as I think it should.

Finally I found a series of four factory drawings that show several variations of K/D linkage with the parts numbered consistently. Then I could compare each of the pictures with the parts on hand and realize that I still don't have the parts needed to assemble even one correct set. I'll stop here and post that illustration. I wish there was a way to post them inside the text rather than just at the end.

 

[64ragtop]

Looking at the four drawings:

There are 3 different upper bellcranks (identified as part #6)

Looks like 4 different Intermediate Transmission Rods (part# 10)

2 different Carburetor Rods (part #12)

And there are other differences, but those three parts are the ones I've adjusted so far. I have the short Intermediate Transmission Rod, and my upper bellcrank is not shown in these drawings.
That short rod is why I can only adjust the Ball Socket (part #2). It's sandwiched between the engine, the firewall, and the throttle cable.
You can see that the different bellcranks have different angles between their arms. What angle my upper bellcrank arms have is a mystery.

It's break time! I would appreciate any feedback, opinions or observations anyone would care to add. Thank you.

ATB

BC

 

[flipper]

Do yourself a favour buy the Bouchillon kit.

 

[64ragtop]

Thanks, flipper! Funny thing, though, I already HAVE a Bouchillon kit and a Lokar throttle and kickdown set.
But sometimes I'm like a pit bull with a bone in its teeth. Just can't turn loose 'til something knocks me upside the head....

ATB

BC