Use or don't use vacuum advance on distributor???????????????????

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Carb shouldn't matter but its a 750 willys carb. 74 dart stock gears stock everything else. I am asking about adjusting the screw in the vacuum can on the distributer to make it work on manifold vacuum. I know its not a carb issue I'm asking if I can adjust a factory distributer to work with manifold vacuum.
 
Carb shouldn't matter but its a 750 willys carb. 74 dart stock gears stock everything else. I am asking about adjusting the screw in the vacuum can on the distributer to make it work on manifold vacuum. I know its not a carb issue I'm asking if I can adjust a factory distributer to work with manifold vacuum.
OK, we'll go with that. You are asking the wrong question.
You don't adjust the vacuum advance to work with manifold vacuum. You tune the engine to work with the vacuum advance that uses manifold vacuum.
Have a good evening.
 
OK, we'll go with that. You are asking the wrong question.
You don't adjust the vacuum advance to work with manifold vacuum. You tune the engine to work with the vacuum advance that uses manifold vacuum.
Have a good evening.
Can you please elaborate? I'm asking what to do to make it work because it had too much vacuum at idle and advances the distributer at idle. If I can't make it work tomorrow I will end up putting a mechanical distributer off a lean burn on it.
 
First off have you mapped the timing curve? I'm not a proponent of using manifold vacuum but vacuum advance at idle shouldn't make it run that bad, even if you have quite a bit of initial timing.

I have ran across a couple factory distributors that ran terrible when vacuum advance was applied and found the issue was when the vacuum can activated it closed up the magnetic pickup gap so any time I set up a factory distributor I use my mityvac to activate the vacuum advance to see if the gap changes enough to be a problem. I usually find it changes a small amount so I play with the adjustment to make sure it's within spec all the time
 
Don at FBO sets his distribitors up for manifold vac. Had one in my dart. I liked it. Felt I needed less throttle to get it moving compared to the non vac advance dist I had in it before. Also had to turn down the idle with manifold vac. Both caused less gas useage. Still had mechanical set up at like 17 and 35 but with the vac advance hooked up it had close to 50 at idle if I remember correctly.
 
Can you please elaborate? I'm asking what to do to make it work because it had too much vacuum at idle and advances the distributer at idle. If I can't make it work tomorrow I will end up putting a mechanical distributer off a lean burn on it.
Elaboration included.
The vacuum advance, as noted, only affects part and light throttle driving. It is designed to maximize fuel mileage and keep plugs cleaner over their life time. Properly set, it does not negatively affect the engine at wide open throttle or idle, and in fact can add 10-30% more mpg depending on the setup and tune. It is a feelable difference when you're driving and I always run them when possible. There is a point where the vacuum characteristics of an engine package make it impossible to adjust the advance to work with it. That's usually with larger cams or engines that are overcammed. At that point, it's better to cap the line and run without it.

For those of you interested.......

This was written by a former GM engineer as a response to a similar question on a Camaro board:


As many of you are aware, timing and vacuum advance is one of my favorite subjects, as I was involved in the development of some of those systems in my GM days and I understand it. Many people don't, as there has been very little written about it anywhere that makes sense, and as a result, a lot of folks are under the misunderstanding that vacuum advance somehow compromises performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I finally sat down the other day and wrote up a primer on the subject, with the objective of helping more folks to understand vacuum advance and how it works together with initial timing and centrifugal advance to optimize all-around operation and performance. I have this as a Word document if anyone wants it sent to them - I've cut-and-pasted it here; it's long, but hopefully it's also informative.

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.

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First off have you mapped the timing curve? I'm not a proponent of using manifold vacuum but vacuum advance at idle shouldn't make it run that bad, even if you have quite a bit of initial timing.

I have ran across a couple factory distributors that ran terrible when vacuum advance was applied and found the issue was when the vacuum can activated it closed up the magnetic pickup gap so any time I set up a factory distributor I use my mityvac to activate the vacuum advance to see if the gap changes enough to be a problem. I usually find it changes a small amount so I play with the adjustment to make sure it's within spec all the time
I honestly don't know how to map a curve or tune a distributer to a car. I know how to set the timing to what I am told and that is it.
 
Elaboration included.
That article just explains why manifold works better than ported and I have read it a few times but doesn't explain how to set it up. I will just put a mechanical one on it. I have been trying to figure this out for weeks I am tired of messing with it I just want to drive it.
 
What I learned in the last two weeks of tuning my new motor. Started with no vacuum and high initial timing for cam break-in. Reduced initial to 18 degrees and worked on carb tuning while I put about 300 miles on the car. (using wide band O2 sensor) I finally got my carb dialed in, then I went back to 20 degrees initial and hooked up the vacuum advance to ported vacuum. Put another 100 miles on the setup with good results and I think I will leave it there based on my wide band readings and overall drivability. I may try manifold vacuum advance for giggles but with 20 initial I think it would give me too much advance. BTW, my ignition is stock distributor with Pertronix 1 ignition conversion and the aftermarket mechanical advance limiter with soft springs so I am all in mechanical at 2500 RPM.
Right or wrong that is my setup, car runs and drives nice!
 
That article just explains why manifold works better than ported and I have read it a few times but doesn't explain how to set it up. I will just put a mechanical one on it. I have been trying to figure this out for weeks I am tired of messing with it I just want to drive it.
Does it run on the distributor you have now?
Just don't hook up the vacuum advance.
 
Does it run on the distributor you have now?
Just don't hook up the vacuum advance.
It does run yes. If I hook it up it runs like crap. EITHER way when I try and drive it the car accelerates great then it falls on its face once I hit around 2000 rpms. The article doesn't explain how to tune the distributer or tune the carb to work together. I will just put a mechanical one on it and then get a recurve kit if need be. I want to run vacuum advance to help with fuel mileage and etc. It is a street car that I will take to the track when able but right now it sputters out.
 
It does run yes. If I hook it up it runs like crap. EITHER way when I try and drive it the car accelerates great then it falls on its face once I hit around 2000 rpms. The article doesn't explain how to tune the distributer or tune the carb to work together. I will just put a mechanical one on it and then get a recurve kit if need be. I want to run vacuum advance to help with fuel mileage and etc. It is a street car that I will take to the track when able but right now it sputters out.
So when you're accelerating the car hits two grand and then falls on its face? Are you talking full throttle?
 
It does run yes. If I hook it up it runs like crap. EITHER way when I try and drive it the car accelerates great then it falls on its face once I hit around 2000 rpms. The article doesn't explain how to tune the distributer or tune the carb to work together. I will just put a mechanical one on it and then get a recurve kit if need be. I want to run vacuum advance to help with fuel mileage and etc. It is a street car that I will take to the track when able but right now it sputters out.
This sounds like fuel, not timing!
 
That is a hell of a lot of mechanical secondary carb for a 360 unless it is a full race build and you know how to tune it.
Set the linkage so the secondary's cannot come in and try it again.
Just my humble opinion.
It currently is set so it has to be damn near wide open before the secondaries kick in. It actually runs better when I open it wide open. I have a friend who was helping me tune it that races circle track cars and runs these carbs on them. He thought it felt like I was running out of timing. But when I set it currently I have 15 degrees initial timing with a final of 32 with no vacuum advance.
 
It currently is set so it has to be damn near wide open before the secondaries kick in. It actually runs better when I open it wide open. I have a friend who was helping me tune it that races circle track cars and runs these carbs on them. He thought it felt like I was running out of timing. But when I set it currently I have 15 degrees initial timing with a final of 32 with no vacuum advance.
Your tuner could be correct. My build likes 35+ advance but it pulls strong through the entire range. I am running 20 initial and can get it to 40 at 4500 RPM. I am running a small vac secondary carb and the biggest tuning issue I had was getting the fuel so it was leaned out to the correct A/F ratio. Rich mixture does a lot of bad stuff.
 
It currently is set so it has to be damn near wide open before the secondaries kick in. It actually runs better when I open it wide open. I have a friend who was helping me tune it that races circle track cars and runs these carbs on them. He thought it felt like I was running out of timing. But when I set it currently I have 15 degrees initial timing with a final of 32 with no vacuum advance.


35-36 total and get as much initial as you can.
 
It's a pretty carb, but it is conpletely wrong for your engine. It's completely wrong for your intake.

I wanna race your tuner.
 
It's a pretty carb, but it is conpletely wrong for your engine. It's completely wrong for your intake.

I wanna race your tuner.


How is it all wrong? It's a 750. There's nothing wrong with the carb as far as size is concerned. Someday, we are going to leave all the goofball old wives tales in the ditch where they belong.
 
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