What A/F Gauge do you run

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The MTXL is exactly what I have. I wired it up and it smoked shortly thereafter. Did some digging online and Innovate had sent some capacitors to some guys running it to prevent that issue.
I called them and they warrantied it but lectured me about "using relays to control voltage spikes" (uh, what?), so I lectured them about solid state voltage circuits that have been in use since the '60's. They told me that the new one would be good to go and had been upgraded.
Honestly, I haven't run it much since, but it's a feature-packed piece and it worked well up to that point. I'm confident in it.

Also, they recently dropped their warranty from some 12 months to 6 months, so find an old manual online that has the old warranty in it and cite that.
 
This is disturbing information, to say the least. I just bought an Innovate kit with the cheaper digital only gauge, LC-1 module, and sensor for just under 160 on the bay.

One thing that is irritating is their cable. I wanted everthing "under the hood" except the signal outputs, which go of course to the gauge, and to the Holley injection. But with their emphasis on single point grounding it's difficult to figure where this should be handled.

(The EFI computer is under the dash, they want the single point ground at the block)

The damn thing needs a separate signal cable for the gauge, / efi system with appropriate shielding.

Also, the cable for this particular gauge is incredibly short. As I have arthritis and this is cold wx, consider it a temporary install. The cable barely reaches from a gauge panel to the right of the ashtray at bottom of dash to the left kick panel. Is a foot or two of cable that expensive??

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=209528&highlight=commander

attachment.php
 
What am I looking at? whats the rectangular piece at the end of the twin cables? I figured power, ground, o2 sensor.
 
I guess you're askin me. The module is the controller for the O2 sensor. The O2 sensor plugs into the right side of the module in the photo, and the module has three separate cables coming out.

Two are 1/8 stereo phone jacks. These are communications cables, and you can "daisy chain" them to other sensors. If you only have one (me) you plug a terminator into one, and the other connects to the DB-9 serial port cable.

The other cable is "everything else, power, grounds, signal outputs.

The module is programmable for special outputs, but in my case I used the "standard" programming, and entered this data into the Holley software.

One output is 0-5V wideband

The other simulates narrow band output, and I believe can be programmed otherwise.
 
Thanks 67Dart. I was able to find the installation PDF for the MTXL model and it seems straight forward. I understand whats going on now. kinda scary :)
 
I run the MXTL too. I havent had much luck using it as a tuning aide(likely operator error), but there is a peace of mind in knowing what your engine is doing when you get an odd sputter/whatnot
 
These should give you 'good' info, unless

The O2 sensor is too hot/ too cold or overloaded with way too much fuel.

Something wrong with the sensor controller

OR A VOLTAGE offset/ ground loop caused by improper installation. That's the reason for my earlier comments. Innovate makes some comments about this in the destructions, but their cableing does not help you much with this.
 
I run the AEM UEGO wideband, works like a champ. Easily one of the best things I've bought to help me understand carb tuning.

30-4100.jpg
 
UOP said:
I run the AEM UEGO wideband, works like a champ. Easily one of the best things I've bought to help me understand carb tuning.

30-4100.jpg
Click to expand...

+1 here. I have them both in my Dart and my Omni.
 
Cheapest is a narrow-band O2 sensor with a rich/lean indicator. Holley and MSD made one that look similar, with a tiny box. Most have 3 LED's w/ the center one meaning "ideal". List price is ~$170 incl. sensor but I bought 2 off ebay for ~$25 ea, one was never installed. Any narrow-band sensor will work ($15), though they use a 3-wire type and Weatherpack connector (recall).

You can later upgrade to a wideband sensor kit since all use the same O2 bung thread. Indeed, I welded 2 bungs in my exhaust (single pipe) so I can run both sensors and use the narrow band one to calibrate the wideband. Almost as easy while you are doing the job.
 
can't you just get a digital volt meter and hook itto a o2 sensor and pwer?
 
On carb,you are right.A simple OBD 1 GM works on a .1-to 1.0 scale.Great idea.
 
The issue with using the DVM on the narrowband sensor is twofold:

First, the DVM lag and resolution are so low, it's damn near worthless except to tell if the sensor is outputting at all. These narrowband sensors do NOT put a steady-state voltage, but rather a series of spikes and then those spikes are averaged by the EFI ECM for a .0-1V number. In fact, if the sensor is not toggling fast enough,ECM will throw a code for a lazy sensor.
The DVM digits don't refresh enough to keep up with what the sensor is actually putting out. Don't believe me? Go measure your battery, except, while staring at the DVM, stab the battery terminals and immediately release. My Fluke DVM will show a blip but no actual number, and most DVM's won't even register that.

Two: The narrow band sensor is only accurate if it's accurate. Meaning: You have to be damn near where you need to be already, and most carbs cannot stay close enough to where the sensor needs to be during all operating temps and climates. There's a reason that O2 sensors waited until EFI came out...

You use the Wide Band sensor to get every thing tuned, then use the narrow band to make sure it stays there. I bought the MTXL because it's easy to pull it out and swap it from vehicle to vehicle (I use it for tuning Buells, also). If the tuning is not damn-near perfect, the narrow band sensor is worthless.
 
I've been running the AEM wideband in my turbo slant for almost a year without any issues at all, and up until 2 weeks ago it was a daily driver. I know most people don't run them continuously like I did, but with all of the tinkering I do, it's a must.
 
jos51700 said:
The issue with using the DVM on the narrowband sensor is twofold:

First, the DVM lag and resolution are so low, it's damn near worthless except to tell if the sensor is outputting at all. These narrowband sensors do NOT put a steady-state voltage, but rather a series of spikes and then those spikes are averaged by the EFI ECM for a .0-1V number. In fact, if the sensor is not toggling fast enough,ECM will throw a code for a lazy sensor.
The DVM digits don't refresh enough to keep up with what the sensor is actually putting out. Don't believe me? Go measure your battery, except, while staring at the DVM, stab the battery terminals and immediately release. My Fluke DVM will show a blip but no actual number, and most DVM's won't even register that.

Two: The narrow band sensor is only accurate if it's accurate. Meaning: You have to be damn near where you need to be already, and most carbs cannot stay close enough to where the sensor needs to be during all operating temps and climates. There's a reason that O2 sensors waited until EFI came out...

You use the Wide Band sensor to get every thing tuned, then use the narrow band to make sure it stays there. I bought the MTXL because it's easy to pull it out and swap it from vehicle to vehicle (I use it for tuning Buells, also). If the tuning is not damn-near perfect, the narrow band sensor is worthless.
Click to expand...
so the quest for a lower cost tuning tool is futile
 
I am planning on getting this one. Looks like a regular gauge, basically just plug and play.

My exhaust already has the bung in there.

170634_600.jpg
 
rmchrgr said:
I am planning on getting this one. Looks like a regular gauge, basically just plug and play.

My exhaust already has the bung in there.

170634_600.jpg
Click to expand...

That may NOT be a very good buy, unless the description is simply poor. The description makes no mention of outputs other than the gauge, or software and programming. And, it's over 200 bucks.

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ct_Code=170634&Category_Code=AnalogAFGaugeKit

The innovate kit I bought, while I do have some concerns, has both "simulated narrowband" and wideband outputs, to be integrated with EFI, as well as programming to change parameters.
 
bad440 said:
so the quest for a lower cost tuning tool is futile
Click to expand...
Be patient and search ebay every few weeks for "rich lean" and you can score a simple rich/lean indicator for $25 like I did. It gives me great feedback on my Holley Pro-jection since I changed to the 2D box that doesn't have the O2 light of the older box. If you want to roll-your-own with just a digital multimeter on a narrow-band sensor, you could make an R-C circuit to filter the fluctuations. If so, use a ceramic capacitor, not electrolytic or you may ruin the O2 sensor. Similarly, don't use an old voltmeter with needle (galvonometer) since they draw considerable current which can damage the sensor. At least that was the story when they first came out in the 80's. Even it it doesn't destroy it, you would draw the signal down. You can find simple universal O2 sensors cheap on ebay. All you need is the 1-wire type. My 82 Aries had that if you want to try rockauto.

You want cheap, I am Mr. Cheap (see tagline). I got an O2 sensor w/ indicator LED and exhaust bung for ~$5 brand-new on ebay. It was called "emissions warning light", for Onan generators I recall. Used it on my car ~6 mo. to monitor my Pro-jection but has ~30 sec filter so the delay was too long to grab the Pro-jection knobs before the engine stumbed (lean), so I changed to the Holley indicator. For a carb, wouldn't matter since no knobs to tweak. I got a bunch of new stuff cheap from the same surplus house, including an MSD wide-band O2 sensor. If in a rush, PM me and I will sell what I had on my car (or equiv.) for $15 + shipping. Just a rich/lean LED, not wideband.
 
bad440 said:
so the quest for a lower cost tuning tool is futile
Click to expand...
Sort of, but not maybe. Read on...

BillGrissom said:
Be patient and search ebay every few weeks for "rich lean" and you can score a simple rich/lean indicator for $25 like I did. It gives me great feedback on my Holley Pro-jection since I changed to the 2D box that doesn't have the O2 light of the older box. If you want to roll-your-own with just a digital multimeter on a narrow-band sensor, you could make an R-C circuit to filter the fluctuations. If so, use a ceramic capacitor, not electrolytic or you may ruin the O2 sensor. Similarly, don't use an old voltmeter with needle (galvonometer) since they draw considerable current which can damage the sensor. At least that was the story when they first came out in the 80's. Even it it doesn't destroy it, you would draw the signal down. You can find simple universal O2 sensors cheap on ebay. All you need is the 1-wire type. My 82 Aries had that if you want to try rockauto.

You want cheap, I am Mr. Cheap (see tagline). I got an O2 sensor w/ indicator LED and exhaust bung for ~$5 brand-new on ebay. It was called "emissions warning light", for Onan generators I recall. Used it on my car ~6 mo. to monitor my Pro-jection but has ~30 sec filter so the delay was too long to grab the Pro-jection knobs before the engine stumbed (lean), so I changed to the Holley indicator. For a carb, wouldn't matter since no knobs to tweak. I got a bunch of new stuff cheap from the same surplus house, including an MSD wide-band O2 sensor. If in a rush, PM me and I will sell what I had on my car (or equiv.) for $15 + shipping. Just a rich/lean LED, not wideband.
Click to expand...

There are several make-your-own kits available for narrow-band O2, including LED display, analog, what have you. There have also been kits to build your own wide-band, but I really don't know how far they went.

If you've got your carb close on an NA motor, the narrow will probably be fine.
 
67Dart273 said:
That may NOT be a very good buy, unless the description is simply poor. The description makes no mention of outputs other than the gauge, or software and programming. And, it's over 200 bucks.

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ct_Code=170634&Category_Code=AnalogAFGaugeKit

The innovate kit I bought, while I do have some concerns, has both "simulated narrowband" and wideband outputs, to be integrated with EFI, as well as programming to change parameters.
Click to expand...

Yeah that looks like a bad deal. I mean my MXTL was 160 bucks, its a simple hookup and has outputs for logging(which i intend to try next week)

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3844-Complete-All-In-One/dp/B004MDT8MW/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1354828528&sr=1-1&keywords=mxtl"]Innovate Motorsports 3844 MTX-L Complete All-In-One Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge Kit : Amazon.com : Automotive[/ame]
 
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