What is this carb?

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cruiser

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Hi All: I saw this carb at the junkyard on a 1973 slant six Duster. Can you identify this carb and tell me if this is the factory original? Is this a better carb than the factory Holley 1945 that I have on my 1974 Duster? Whaddya think?

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The 1945 is an improvement over the 1920. Some people say that the 1920 is one of the worst carb's ever made. That said, I run a 1920 and she is a leaky mess and stalls at low speed acceleration.

Find a nice Carter BBS, people say its the best factory single barrel carb for the slant six application.
 
Maybe today, the carter is a better carb, but when new, I liked the 1920 better. I ran a stock 65 Valiant with a 170/904 as a street/strip car. I tried both carbs. The Holley 1920 ran quicker/faster in the 1/4 mile, and got just about the same fuel mileage. Just remember (not sure on the bbs) but there were several different versions of the 1920, depending on the year/model/engine size. In 1964/65/66 the 170 standard shift engine got a small carb. the 170 auto and all 225's got a larger carb.
 
Maybe today, the carter is a better carb, but when new, I liked the 1920 better. I ran a stock 65 Valiant with a 170/904 as a street/strip car. I tried both carbs. The Holley 1920 ran quicker/faster in the 1/4 mile, and got just about the same fuel mileage. Just remember (not sure on the bbs) but there were several different versions of the 1920, depending on the year/model/engine size. In 1964/65/66 the 170 standard shift engine got a small carb. the 170 auto and all 225's got a larger carb.
Probably bigger jets, not bigger carb?
 
Probably bigger jets, not bigger carb?
Barrel and venturi size are different. Not just the jets.
From rthe 1964 factory service manual:
Carb Holley 1920, 170 engine manual trans # R-2765A, barrel size 1 9/16, venturi size 1 1/4
carb holley 1920, 170 engine auto trans. # R-2766A, barrel size 1 11/16, venturi size 1 5/16
Carb Holley 1920, 225 engine, all trans, # R-2767A, 2768A, 2769A, 2770A, Barrel size 1 11/16, venturi size, 1 5/16
The BBS also shows the same size differences. Also shows that "fleet" and "Taxi" applications use the smaller carb with either engine.
 
When I had a 1920, after I rebuilt it, its only problem was that it was not a BBD. Then the BBD's problem was that it wasn't easy to tune for boost. Then the Holley 4 barrel's problem was that the guy who tuned it for boost didn't know what he was doing...

Ok, I got off track there. A decent 1920 can be fine if you don't get bitten by the mod bug. Unfortunately that doesn't look like a decent 1920. No point in grabbing it unless you're taking it for parts.
 
Hi All: I saw this carb at the junkyard on a 1973 slant six Duster. Can you identify this carb

It is a 1973 (final-year) Holley 1920. They were not happy carburetors when new, the last few years of 1920s, and they aged poorly.


Is this a better carb than the factory Holley 1945 that I have on my 1974 Duster?

No. The 1974 (first-year) Holley 1945 was not a happy carburetor, either. You would gain nothing by swapping on the 1920, except some drawbacks that weren't there before.
 
Thanks, Dan. I'm actually fairly happy with the stock Holley 1945 in my 1974 225 Duster. Had it rebuilt by a very experienced carb guy and it seems to run just fine. Just finished dialing in my slant after a full rebuild. It had a bit of a miss at both high idle and curb idle. Brought it to my engine guy and he did a great job advancing the timing to 19.5 degrees BTC, the curb idle to 830 RPM, and adjusted the idle mixture. All nice and smooth now. BTW, the large amount of advance (factory setting is 0 degrees) on the distributor is because it was rebuilt and recurved for modern gasoline.
 
my engine guy and he did a great job advancing the timing to 19.5 degrees BTC

Yike. That is way, far too much initial timing. Maybe it's running well for you, but something is not right with your setup.

the large amount of advance (factory setting is 0 degrees) on the distributor is because it was rebuilt and recurved for modern gasoline.

No, sir. The one doesn't follow from the other. There is nothing about "modern gasoline" that would warrant anywhere near that much initial timing, or an advance curve so radically different from stock as to require that much initial timing to run well.
 
Yike. That is way, far too much initial timing. Maybe it's running well for you, but something is not right with your setup.



No, sir. The one doesn't follow from the other. There is nothing about "modern gasoline" that would warrant anywhere near that much initial timing, or an advance curve so radically different from stock as to require that much initial timing to run well.
Well, here is what I know about the timing. First, the emissions tag on the left inner fender says set it to 0. As previously mentioned, the stock distributor was rebuilt by a very experienced distributor guy. It looked great when it came back - as a matter of fact, you can see photos of the actual distributor under one of my chapters of "Bob's Component Resto". When he returned it to me, it looked perfect inside and out, and he told me that due to the recurve, the timing had to be set to 18 degrees before. I then brought the distributor to the guy rebuilding my motor and told him about the timing. The engine guy told me that had to be wrong, so he set it to the factory setting (0). As soon as we started the engine up and drove it off the lot the first time, the engine died as soon as we put the gas to it. So he agreed to set it to 18 as we were told, and the engine ran great. Why didn't it run at 0? Why did it run well at 18 (and now 19.5)? Beats the hell out of me. All I know is that, the way the motor is set up right now, it has never run better. Smooth, powerful, no pinging, no valve clatter, no hesitation, no stalling. I think it might be best to leave well enough alone. I know I'm not damaging the engine running it this way. I just feel that the more I monkey with it, the worse it will get. So something in the distributor rebuild caused this, but I'm very happy with the way the car drives. Additionally, perhaps my motor tuner has a different way of calibrating his timing gun with all of the fancy adjustments on it that I do not understand. Does this mean his 19.5 is actually 4? I have no idea. This is my fifth slant six that I've owned, and far and away the best driving one I've ever had. I don't mean to question anyone's observations on this topic - they're much appreciated and I'm grateful for the input. Thanks.
 
Well, here is what I know about the timing. First, the emissions tag on the left inner fender says set it to 0. As previously mentioned, the stock distributor was rebuilt by a very experienced distributor guy. It looked great when it came back - as a matter of fact, you can see photos of the actual distributor under one of my chapters of "Bob's Component Resto". When he returned it to me, it looked perfect inside and out, and he told me that due to the recurve, the timing had to be set to 18 degrees before. I then brought the distributor to the guy rebuilding my motor and told him about the timing. The engine guy told me that had to be wrong, so he set it to the factory setting (0). As soon as we started the engine up and drove it off the lot the first time, the engine died as soon as we put the gas to it. So he agreed to set it to 18 as we were told, and the engine ran great. Why didn't it run at 0? Why did it run well at 18 (and now 19.5)? Beats the hell out of me. All I know is that, the way the motor is set up right now, it has never run better. Smooth, powerful, no pinging, no valve clatter, no hesitation, no stalling. I think it might be best to leave well enough alone. I know I'm not damaging the engine running it this way. I just feel that the more I monkey with it, the worse it will get. So something in the distributor rebuild caused this, but I'm very happy with the way the car drives. Additionally, perhaps my motor tuner has a different way of calibrating his timing gun with all of the fancy adjustments on it that I do not understand. Does this mean his 19.5 is actually 4? I have no idea. This is my fifth slant six that I've owned, and far and away the best driving one I've ever had. I don't mean to question anyone's observations on this topic - they're much appreciated and I'm grateful for the input. Thanks.
Are you checking the timing with the vac advance disconnected?
I would find out what the "TOTAL" timing is. also how much vacuum advance. In most cases a slant does not like much more that 28-30, maybe 32, total timing without the vacuum advance hooked up.
PS: on a street car you will always want the vac advance working.
 
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the emissions tag on the left inner fender says set it to 0.

Yup. That was a spec designed for one thing only: squeak the cars past their emissions type-approval tests so they'd be legal to put on the market. Every other consideration was ignored (driveability, performance, fuel economy, etc). Please don't mistake me; I'm not saying "oh, no, tsk-tsk, you mustn't deviate from the factory spec".

I'm also not saying a recurve job on the distributor is useless or unwise. But the optimal recurve is not radically different from the factory curve. It's a matter of optimizing. You can get a good 80 to 85 per cent of the way there by simply leaving the factory advance curves as they are, setting the initial timing to 5° BTDC, and eliminating the OSAC valve.

I know I'm not damaging the engine running it this way.

I respectfully disagree. What I am saying is that 19 or 20 degrees initial advance is going to make problems. They might not be immediately or easily obvious, but they'll be there regardless. Pinging is practically guaranteed, and it's damaging even if you can't hear it.

the stock distributor was rebuilt by a very experienced distributor guy.

Good, but experience with distributors does not necessarily mean experience with Slant-6 engines.

It looked great when it came back

Good, but parts that look beautiful can be functionally crummy, and parts that look ugly can work great.

he told me that due to the recurve, the timing had to be set to 18 degrees before.

Here's where the problems/questions lie. This is really worth digging into, even if in the end you decide to leave it at 19.5°. Did he provide detailed info on the mechanical and vacuum advance curves he dialled in? Degrees at RPM for the mechanical, degrees at inches of mercury for the vacuum?

I then brought the distributor to the guy rebuilding my motor and told him about the timing. The engine guy told me that had to be wrong, so he set it to the factory setting (0).

This is a false dichotomy. There are many places to put the distributor other than 0° or 18°.

perhaps my motor tuner has a different way of calibrating his timing gun with all of the fancy adjustments on it that I do not understand. Does this mean his 19.5 is actually 4?

No. 19.5° means 19.5°, whether it's on a basic timing light or a fancy dialback unit.
 
If you KNOW you're not harming the engine, then WHY did you come here and ask opinions? 19.5 degrees initial is entirely too much timing for a stock slant 6. Period. You do not have to HEAR detonation for it to be occurring and damaging your engine. Good luck with it. Cya later tater.
 
@cruiser This has still been nagging at me: a car that won't run at the specified initial timing, and runs well with an initial timing setting where it shouldn't run well (or at all).

Leaving aside the bogus explanation ("today's gasoline"), what could cause this? Occurred to me yesterday, and still bore weight after I slept on it: the Slant-6 crank pulley is a 2-piece design: outer ring w/belt groove and timing mark, inner hub. The two pieces are bonded together with a rubber material. Even in the 1980s when these cars weren't all that old, a known failure mode was for the rubber to lose its firm grip on one piece and/or the other, so the outer ring would slip relative to the inner hub. When that happens, the timing mark stops being accurate; it indicates more advance than is actually the case. That would make it entirely possible that an indicated 19° of initial advance is actually less than that, maybe in a reasonable range of where stockish Slant-6s run well, ~5°ish BTDC.

I'm not a gambling man, but I do wonder if this engine's timing mark been checked to see if 0° (TDC) as indicated at the front of the engine is actually TDC as far as the № 1 piston is concerned.


@RustyRatRod
 
@cruiser This has still been nagging at me: a car that won't run at the specified initial timing, and runs well with an initial timing setting where it shouldn't run well (or at all).

Leaving aside the bogus explanation ("today's gasoline"), what could cause this? Occurred to me yesterday, and still bore weight after I slept on it: the Slant-6 crank pulley is a 2-piece design: outer ring w/belt groove and timing mark, inner hub. The two pieces are bonded together with a rubber material. Even in the 1980s when these cars weren't all that old, a known failure mode was for the rubber to lose its firm grip on one piece and/or the other, so the outer ring would slip relative to the inner hub. When that happens, the timing mark stops being accurate; it indicates more advance than is actually the case. That would make it entirely possible that an indicated 19° of initial advance is actually less than that, maybe in a reasonable range of where stockish Slant-6s run well, ~5°ish BTDC.

I'm not a gambling man, but I do wonder if this engine's timing mark been checked to see if 0° (TDC) as indicated at the front of the engine is actually TDC as far as the № 1 piston is concerned.


@RustyRatRod
That's a definite possibility. If it was mine, I'd get a piston stop and find true TDC and find out. The good part about a slipped outer ring (if there IS a good part) is that all slant sixes are internally balanced. As such, he probably won't pick up any vibration if it has slipped.

The part that makes it all bad is, if it has slipped AROUND, it can also slip OFF and sling right into the radiator.
 
If you KNOW you're not harming the engine, then WHY did you come here and ask opinions? 19.5 degrees initial is entirely too much timing for a stock slant 6. Period. You do not have to HEAR detonation for it to be occurring and damaging your engine. Good luck with it. Cya later tater.
He wasn't asking for an opinion on the dizzy/timing, simply shared it & is getting blowback, thread was about the 1920 Holley He found. None of Us know what's actually in that dizzy, advance limiters on weights/can, springs, etc.....the fact that it runs better as is tells Me sumpin's up that remains un-disclosed/known.
 
I think Slant Six Dan is on the right track with a fail balancer, or perhaps a previous owner played mix and match with balancers and timing marks.
 
@cruiser This has still been nagging at me: a car that won't run at the specified initial timing, and runs well with an initial timing setting where it shouldn't run well (or at all).

Leaving aside the bogus explanation ("today's gasoline"), what could cause this? Occurred to me yesterday, and still bore weight after I slept on it: the Slant-6 crank pulley is a 2-piece design: outer ring w/belt groove and timing mark, inner hub. The two pieces are bonded together with a rubber material. Even in the 1980s when these cars weren't all that old, a known failure mode was for the rubber to lose its firm grip on one piece and/or the other, so the outer ring would slip relative to the inner hub. When that happens, the timing mark stops being accurate; it indicates more advance than is actually the case. That would make it entirely possible that an indicated 19° of initial advance is actually less than that, maybe in a reasonable range of where stockish Slant-6s run well, ~5°ish BTDC.

I'm not a gambling man, but I do wonder if this engine's timing mark been checked to see if 0° (TDC) as indicated at the front of the engine is actually TDC as far as the № 1 piston is concerned.


@RustyRatRod
I hope you're not losing any sleep over this. Its doesn't really nag me because the engine runs beautifully. Theoretically, I believe that a slant six would run terribly with 19.5 degrees of timing cranked in. Everything that I've read supports 5-ish as the sweet spot, as you mentioned. The engine is running as if it were set at about 5. I like your theory of a slipped outer ring. I've never checked this, and I believe that this is the original balancer. Is there a simple way to do this with a visual inspection, such as two marks on the inner and outer that should be lining up? Thanks.
 
I hope you're not losing any sleep over this. Its doesn't really nag me because the engine runs beautifully. Theoretically, I believe that a slant six would run terribly with 19.5 degrees of timing cranked in. Everything that I've read supports 5-ish as the sweet spot, as you mentioned. The engine is running as if it were set at about 5. I like your theory of a slipped outer ring. I've never checked this, and I believe that this is the original balancer. Is there a simple way to do this with a visual inspection, such as two marks on the inner and outer that should be lining up? Thanks.
The positive-stop method is best way to do it in-car. Basically pull the plugs, and then thread a tool in place of the #1 plug that has an extension w/a rounded end that will contact the piston. Turn the engine CW by hand easy 'til the piston is seated against the stop, mark the damper at the TDC -0- on the timing cover, then reverse rotate it until the piston contacts & is seated on the stop again & make the 2nd mark at the -0-. Precisely halfway between those 2 marks is Your true piston TDC. If it is not on the notch in the damper ring, You'll be able to see/measure how many degrees it is off.
 
It really does have to involve checking where the piston is when the timing mark indicates 0.

(And yes, there is a risk of the damper coming apart and causing damage)
 
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