what should I get?????? 360 buildup

[mopowermatt]

I'm putting a 360 in my 64 dodge dart it was a slant six so I got schumacer mounts for it. I need to know what I can do to it to make it faster. I've never raced a V8 so I guess I'm kind of like a rookie and I don't know what else can make my car go faster. I hate trailer queens but I like it when stuff gets a little crazy for the street if you know what I mean. Here is what I have

stock spec. trw forged pistons in rebuilt block (new rings and bearings)
stock crank and stock heavy duty (truck) 360 rods
340 six pack heads 2.02 int. 1.60 ex valves 5 angle valve job
dual springs/ chromoly retainers
Quality port and polish job by someone who is really good and I trust. (mopar freek)

Headmen fenderwell headers 1 7/8 primary $600 bucks Ouch!!!
holly 750
victor jr intake
crower .509 lift cam
crower pushrods
stock adjustable rockers polished inside and out
msd ignition and coil 6a
Nos 150 shot plate system
Disc brakes
stock fuel pump
stock suspension


I am planning on getting....

8 3/4 rearend with 3.73 and a mini spool <---- I'm on a budget
3,000 stall hughes torque convertor

any other things I should get any ideas could help I know you guy's know what your talking about please help me out I'm a rookie trying to smash on everyone in the neighborhood. I'm not going to go to the track that much maybe once every two months.

thanks guys

 

[moper]

It looks pretty good the way you have it. But, the Victor is not the intake you want. I'd suggest an RPM Air Gap for it instead. Also, a minispool has no place in a street car. Invest in a quality limited slip differential. If its a budget deal, try the Power Trax locker that replaces the spider gears. Spools require upgraded axles, and make a racket on the street around corners, in addition to being suicidal in a surprise rain storm...lol.

 

[mopowermatt]

why the air gap I've seen the victor jr on 9 sec. cars and everyone loves it

 

[rumblefish360]

Excuess me moper, while I'm up in the middle of the night here, I'll take a stab at that question on the intake.

mopowermatt, On the intake, the Victor is a very high RPM intake. There really best suited for a NASCAR engine. They really sing up top. Now, again, you seen them on 9 sec. cars. Thats great, Are you gonna run 9's with what you got? ........No your not.

Theres a few things I'd like to inquire about what you have now. You left out a lot of info thats really very very important to us here in helping you out with the advice your looking for.

stock spec. trw forged pistons in rebuilt block

For what year 360? You know there all low comp. engines right? Was the block decked? How heavy are these pistons. Stock spec. Then that would make them near twice as heavy than the cars running 9's. (Problem)

340 six pack heads 2.02 int. 1.60 ex valves 5 angle valve job

Are you sure there stock 6 pak heads with the moved pushrod holes? Stock "X" heads do not flow enuff to really support the use of the Victor well. If there seriously ported out, then they can start to use it.
Cam seems alittle small on lift for ported heads. Whats Crowers duration @ .050?

It does look like the car will run OK. But theres lots more in a better balanced package. Have at it Matt. Keep the hammer down. :thumblef:

 

[mopowermatt]

I have a collection of mopar books that I bought at the book store and they have I.D. numbers so I checked and my heads are '70 340 TA heads they don't have an X or a J but the serial number's say 341895 so they have 65 cc cumbustion chambers. I think the heads are the best I thing I have. I'm thinking the heads are all out just like the headers and intake but I don't know about the cam. But maybe the intake is overkill though.

I don't know how heavy the pistons are. My 360 is a 72 and my new pistons look exactly the same as those. The heads have been milled some but I don't know how much. The block hasn't been decked. Oh yeah also the valves are ferrea.

I don't know the exact specs of the cam. I got it from the guy that ported my heads and stuff he helps me out a lot.

Do you think I should start looking for a different intake. I forgot to mention the intake I have has been port matched. It looks really good and smoothed out real good. Also he did some work to the top near the carb and those 4 dividers. If it will help though I can look for a different intake some day.

What do you think about 1.6 roller rockers instead of getting a new cam.

How fast do you think this setup could get. How about traction and suspension. I haven't even started any of that.

Thanks for the help it's really appreciated. I don't know anyone who does this stuff that much

 

[70Barracuda]

Hey Matt,

Rumble has something there with the cam. You need to know what that is. Good cams are cheap hp. You will need a decent converter. You should not go cheap here. You will need a true 3000 stall at least. I know this first hand. I picked up a second in the 1/8 with less gear, going to a clutch. I had a **** converter! I think Dynamic makes a dual pattern converter.

You dont have a proper fuel system for nitrous at all. Id shelve that idea for now. Get your car running good first.

I always liked the Victor. The Air-Gap is really tall. The RPM is a good manifold too. Those TRW's are like 880 grams. Its alot but, its what you have.

 

[rumblefish360]

What do you think about 1.6 roller rockers instead of getting a new cam.

Alot spent for little gain.

How fast do you think this setup could get. How about traction and suspension. I haven't even started any of that.

You could get going preety good. At this level, I think traction will not be a big problem. The weight of the car and gear ratio thats current are an unknown to me, so a guess is out of the question for the last two (Semi) answers given.
Right now, the best traction you can have (Cheaply) would be wide tires like a set of BFG's Drag Radials and S/S spring or a custom set from spring and things. (Might even be cheaper.) Add a pinion snubber (Adjustable) and your set. Thinner tires up front aid only in less hi speed wind resistance. Regular street tires will do. Light weight wheels. (Rims)

Thanks for the help it's really appreciated. I don't know anyone who does this stuff that much

Used to do it all the time until I had kids and got a house. :sad2:
Now it takes 2 weeks to do an intake gasket. Ahhh the amount of free time I used to have.

I don't know the exact specs of the cam. I got it from the guy that ported my heads and stuff he helps me out a lot.

Ask him how much lift the heads will support. And on the intake, we'll work with what you have now.
I also agree with 70Barracuda on the NO2. Your fuel system is not up to it. Wait on it.
Do you know how far down the hole the piston sits? The part number for the piston by chance? .030 overbore?
Just trying to zero in on the exacts of the short block for a better picture. I want to know the comp. ratio, exact if possible. And this is with 65 cc heads right?

 

[moper]

Rumble, mind if I butt in a little? If the heads are off the enigne, and "fully ported", they should have also been cc'd. You cannot accurately figure out what you have to work with from a book of castings and specs. The engine has been redone, same witht he hedas. So, you need to get some measurements. You need actual chamber volume (your friend can help with that), and you need to know where the top of the piston is in relation to the block deck height at top dead center. With those, you can figure out your static compresion ratio, and then work out which cam and intake would be best. Race parts are for racing. you have to be very careful what you combine into a street car, or you will be disappointed. If possible, you really should get the flow data from teh heads that were ported too. The more info, the better the match and the better the performance. ok...sorry about the butting in ..;)

 

[Locomotion]

Well heck! I'll jump in too!Some stuff has been covered.

* Forget the Victor and go with a good dual plane, as mentioned.
* Your book has some misprints! Regular '70 340 heads were 2531894. T/A heads were 3418915 (like early 360 heads) but were machined for 2.02" intakes and had offset pushrod holes. Also, 65cc is closer to a "blueprint" spec. Actual castings were closer to 68+cc's.
* 1 7/8" headers are too big, particularly for the cam and gears. 1 3/4" headers will work better. But they will still likely be expensive or difficult to find an efficient set for the arly A-bodies.
* TRW pistons are usually the heaviest pistons available! If they look the same as your originals, they don't have valve notches, which may cause a problem with piston-to-valve clearance.
* "Stock" fuel pump may not be enough.
* "Stock" suspension will make everything else a waste of time & money!
Early A-bodies have very little room for wide tires to begin with.
* For reference, All 360 and 340 rods are similar, including weight. The main difference is that 340 rods are bushed on the small end.

You will be much happier if you stay on the conservative side. There are IHRA and NHRA Stock cars with 360's running well into the 10's! Under .484" lift, 1 3/4' max headers, 3,200+ lbs, no porting/polishing, stock compression, etc. Cam duration, ring packages gears and converters may not be streetable, but you have to make some compromises if you will drive it on the street.

 

[rumblefish360]

Locomotion, come on in, the water is warm.

No not at all. Butt on in. You make a good point. But this is the angle I'm looking at.

You cannot accurately figure out what you have to work with from a book of castings and specs.

Absoultley correct. However, with the "65cc heads" and a known piston and overbore on a engine he said "Was not decked" we'll assume the deck height @ 9.6. This would be ball park enuff for the general idea rather than a number not yet in print on this page. It would have been great if he came up with "I have 9.8-1 ratio" But..............

ok...sorry about the butting in ..;)

No, don't be sorry. I've read enuff from you to know that you know how these things work. Ignoring what you bring up would be dumb.
I did forget head gasket thickness and such.....

mopowermatt, did you notice what Locomotion said about the cars running 10's with what stuff?
I also what to clear something up. I said we'll work with what you have now. (Intake) I do agree with the fellas, I believe a RPM or such would do you alot better. I also must have had dirt in my eyes on the headers size. Very big.

 

[mopowermatt]

i knew that the headers were a little big when I bought them. I know they are going to look sick when they are in the car though. Maybe one day I can build a motor built enough to use those headers good maybe a 408 stroker or something I have always wanted that from the begining.

I don't plan on using this motor forever, maybe just a year or so and then build a better one with a forged crank at least and a better cam. I got the pistons with rings for 150 bucks so I figured I couldn't go wrong.

Besides the fuel pump is there anything else I should get for my fuel system before running nitrous. One time just for fun my buddies and I put a 150 shot on a 150,000 original miles 318 with bad rod knock and it lasted through the whole bottle with every rod knocking in that thing it was crazy. It was backfiring through the carb. flames came from under the hood. hahahaha

Oh yeah and like you guys were saying about those guys that run 10's in that stock class. how do they do that and if they can do that with those motors then I should be able to do that with mine on the nitrous right? Just build the car right with correct suspension and gears. If I can get my car to run 10's and still drive it on the street I will be the happiest man alive.

I have heavy duty stock truck rods are those forged?

Also you guys say that I will lose power with my large tube headers and this intake sooo..... How much power is this 10-20 horses or 25-50 horses just esitmate. And How can I get my motor to rev up high enough to use the Victor Jr. And how can I build my motor to handle those headers. When I bought that cam I thought it was BIIIGGG maybe I'm wrong.

i'm putting the motor in the car on Sunday I'll try to get some pictures on here with the headers and **** so you guys can see it.

Oh yeah and even with the wrong size headers and intake I'm still going to go out there and smash on some chevy's ahahahahahaaaa

 

[moper]

Matt, There really isnt a "right" or "wrong" that can be applied universally. What there is, is stuff that works well together, and stuff that doesnt. Race cars are designed to do a certain job. NASCAR needs a lot of power, over a broad rpm range that is generally from 7500 to 9000 rpm, depending on the track and package. It's that specific. They used to have two engines, one to qualify, and several to race on. That's because the qualifier was a little more powerful, but designed to last about 40 laps. A drag car is the same concept. Make it accelerate as fast as possible from 0. The class racers that are successful do just that. But again, they are track only engines. My friend's stock (NHRA and IHRA record holder in several classes at the same time) was a 351 Cleveland Ford. Hydraulic cam, 1971 model year. 9:1 compression, stock iron intake, Autolite/Holley (550cfm?)4bbl carb The car was a 4sp, and ran as fast as 11.17 IIRC 10 years ago. Stock parts, except the cam, which has to remain stock lift. But, he had thousands in dyno testing, camshaft designs, valve types, valve seat angles, and careful blueprinting, a $1200 set of custom stepped headers. The engine dynod around 485hp at 7900rpm. He ran 5.13 gears, and dropped the clutch at 7200. A stock engine? Sure, sort of...a street car engine? heck no. it ran 130psi oil pressure to force the lifters to behave as solids would, it had theramlly coated factory intake, factory autolite Holley. It made no power below 5000 rpm. what do you drive around at?

The point is, a street car takes the best ideas from racing, and uses the ones that wont make driving the car in traffic or to a cruise night too much of a compromise. In your case, the .509 design cam will be ok, but feel soft with what we think will be lower than optimum compression. The intake could help with this, but a design like the Victor wont help at all. It will hurt idle quality (which you do a lot in a street car), low end power, and smoothness under 3-4K rpm. The headers are overkill, but if you're planning to go bigger later, you're only buying one set. but again, those big tubes will hurt you right where you spend time (rpm-wise) driving. So, you have a 360, that is a great torquey low rpm engine normally, and hurt the performance window you will need it to work in.

I've run small NO2 systems with a stock pump. But you run a greaterrisk of leaning out either the carb, or the plate. In any case, things tend to come apart quickly if that happens. You should buy the fuel pressure cutoff switch and wire it in properly. That will not allow a lean condition by not activating the system if the pressure is below what you regulate it to. And it needs to have a regulator and gage, even a stock pump system. You need to know what you're working with. I liked to run 4psi at the solenoid, and the stock A/C Delco manufactured fuel pump (my 340..that's what the parts place sold..lol) would produce 5-6psi.

360 LA rods from what I know (a little limited...) are all the same, until the Magnum engines.

Id bet you loose 20-25hp at peak, and more important, you'll loose a lot of torque, and push the torque peak higher in the rpm range. 'course that's just an educated guess on my part.

 

[mopowermatt]

I heard that if I get that dual plane intake then the nitrous won't disperse evenly and I will lean a cylinder out.

 

[AdamR]

My turn, I tink a smaller cam, something in the 235 @050" range would be better then the 509". Also the RPM would be a better choicer. Other wise you are going to need more gear. I have a Victor intake on my 340 and it didnt make peak torque till 5200rpms. Not the best for the street.

With the headers you dont have many choices. Its either go small with 1-5/8" Hookers or go big with the 1-7/8" hedmens.

 

[moper]

I heard that if I get that dual plane intake then the nitrous won't disperse evenly and I will lean a cylinder out.

That's BS. You would have the same problem with the air/fuel mix from a carburetor if that were the case. Plates have equal numbers of holes drilled down each side of the tube. Unless some holes get missed, or plugged by contaminants, you wont have any problems. I always use brake cleaner to clear out any gunk, and shop air to check each set of holes before the plate gets put on. It's rare, but I have found a plate with 2 holes not drilled properly in the past. I ran 175hp thru a stock dual plane on a 340, and later a 383..no issues at all.

 

[mopowermatt]

 

[mopowermatt]

I'm getting a radio delete for that gaping whole in the dash. I just dropped the motor in today. I'm excited to see it in there. I can't wait until the little monster starts up