What to do to get a quicker launch...

[fishy68]

There is an adjustment inside the tranny to increase the pressure without having throttle travel interference. It has been a long time since I was in an automatic tranny but I believe there is an allen bolt adjuster below the servo.

There is an adjustment for the main line pressure and it shouldn't be adjusted without gauges hooked up to the line pressure and servo pressure outputs then going through the sequence described in the factory service manual in which to test/adjust it. You can blindly crank it up but you never know how much affects it and if you go too much it'll start popping seals or cause overlap between gears which is bad. I recommend installing a Trans-go shift kit before cranking the pressure up.

Thanks Blownfish, I'll look into that, although for now I've orederd the proper linkage Chrysler linkage for the Holley.

Fishy:

There is really no way to get the transmission to behave the way you've described, that is exactly how I have set up the last 3 Mopar transmission I've done, even TH350 chevy's are the same... the trans just doesn't respond. I think/hope the linkage has too much travel for a Mopar, looks like it's the Ford linkage that's on there...

That may be the problem, wrong linkage. And it may also just be a slpppy shifting trans. that a shift kit will take care of.

Lunati is a cam I've looked into and it interests me, I just like the name, especially the Vodoo series. I've heard good things.

I want to play with the timing when it stops raining out, where is the allen head to adjust the vac pod located?

Thanks
David

Yeah the Voodoo series are the aggressive ones. I run one in my 360 and it runs great. The allen head for the vacuum advance adjustment is accessed through where the vacuum line plugs onto the vacuum advance. Just pull off the vacuum line and stick the proper size allen wrench in it. But that only adjusts how quickly the vacuum advance comes in. It doesn't affect how much timing it has or how fast the centrifugal advance comes in. The only way to affect the amount of advance is to modify the weights in the dist.

 

[pettybludart]

Hey DQ81,I took Fishy68,s advise on the trans-go 2 kit also a 2500 stall for my 360.Works well!Thanks again Fishy68!

 

[Blownfish]

There is an adjustment for the main line pressure and it shouldn't be adjusted without gauges hooked up to the line pressure and servo pressure outputs then going through the sequence described in the factory service manual in which to test/adjust it. You can blindly crank it up but you never know how much affects it and if you go too much it'll start popping seals or cause overlap between gears which is bad. I recommend installing a Trans-go shift kit before cranking the pressure up.

I would recommend a shift kit first also. most shift kits you buy tells you to adjust this pressure when installing it and they tell you how many turns to make. My uncle worked in a trans shop for a while and my old auto mechanics teacher showed us this trick, he is a Mopar guy. That is where I got the info from, I know you don't turn it much, maybe a quarter turn or less to start with. I need to ask him again. My uncle did it to his Dart and I think he did it a couple times till it was where he wanted it. It is common for some shops to make small adjustments to older trannies to get more life from them. I've done it a few times to older trannies, if you have one that is on it's last leg, it will last a lot longer.

 

[yellowdartdave]

If you put a higher stall converter in it, don't forget to add an aux. cooler to the system to get rid of additional heat the high stall converter generates.
Your tranny will love you for it.

 

[DQ81]

Yeah the Voodoo series are the aggressive ones. I run one in my 360 and it runs great. The allen head for the vacuum advance adjustment is accessed through where the vacuum line plugs onto the vacuum advance. Just pull off the vacuum line and stick the proper size allen wrench in it. But that only adjusts how quickly the vacuum advance comes in. It doesn't affect how much timing it has or how fast the centrifugal advance comes in. The only way to affect the amount of advance is to modify the weights in the dist.

Yeah I know, I just wanted to know in case. I just went out to do some timing adjustment based on some other posts I read. I adjusted the timing with a vac. gauge to max and then backed of a little. Went for a drive, no stumble off the line and definately more power. Still not the launch I want but I do run 295´s...

After that run, reset the timing using same method, max vacuum before pinging etc. then back off a bit. Turned out to be 17* BTDC w/ 34* all in at 1800RPM. With the vac. advance back on it get's up in the 50's at 3k RPM (seems a little high).

In any case, that seemed to run well. Got on the highway, floored it from a standstill. No hesitation, shifts at 4.5k, kept it flat out to 200kph (@ 4k RPM btw) and was very happy. Untill I pulled off the next exit and found my engine was missing. Cylinders 5 and 7's spark plug wires are melted to my header.... GRRRR.... I sometimes get the idea this car doesn't want to run well. This engine ran over 3k miles in my posession in a truck no problems... anyway hopefully I'm on the right track.

I also get a heavy engine vibration around 3k sitting in Park, but both mounts are fine...

Hey DQ81,I took Fishy68,s advise on the trans-go 2 kit also a 2500 stall for my 360.Works well!Thanks again Fishy68!

If I don't blow up the car or sell it out of frustration those are 2 things high on the list, thanks for backing that up 8)

If you put a higher stall converter in it, don't forget to add an aux. cooler to the system to get rid of additional heat the high stall converter generates.
Your tranny will love you for it.

I have a manual radiator w/electric fan and external bigass cooler for the trans oil, but I wanna get an oil temp gauge on the trans oil once I go High stall...

 

[fishy68]

I would recommend a shift kit first also. most shift kits you buy tells you to adjust this pressure when installing it and they tell you how many turns to make. My uncle worked in a trans shop for a while and my old auto mechanics teacher showed us this trick, he is a Mopar guy. That is where I got the info from, I know you don't turn it much, maybe a quarter turn or less to start with. I need to ask him again. My uncle did it to his Dart and I think he did it a couple times till it was where he wanted it. It is common for some shops to make small adjustments to older trannies to get more life from them. I've done it a few times to older trannies, if you have one that is on it's last leg, it will last a lot longer.

Yeah the shift kits do tell you how much. In that case it's definitely ok cause you know how much to go. Some kits like the Trans-go kit comes with a different regulator spring. I don't doubt some guys know how much they can get away with too. I have also been rebuilding transmissions for over 25 yrs. and have studied the Torqueflite extensively and know some mods but I usually just install a good Trans-go kit since it does alot more than just up the line pressure.

BTW: Have you ever see the Hyster forklift service vans running around St.Louis? I worked for them doing that for over 11 yrs. Of course that was forklift repair but I did car stuff on the side way before that. Learned it the hard way when I was a kid since I had no money to pay somebody else to do it. LOL

 

[fishy68]

Yeah I know, I just wanted to know in case. I just went out to do some timing adjustment based on some other posts I read. I adjusted the timing with a vac. gauge to max and then backed of a little. Went for a drive, no stumble off the line and definately more power. Still not the launch I want but I do run 295´s...

After that run, reset the timing using same method, max vacuum before pinging etc. then back off a bit. Turned out to be 17* BTDC w/ 34* all in at 1800RPM. With the vac. advance back on it get's up in the 50's at 3k RPM (seems a little high).

In any case, that seemed to run well. Got on the highway, floored it from a standstill. No hesitation, shifts at 4.5k, kept it flat out to 200kph (@ 4k RPM btw) and was very happy. Untill I pulled off the next exit and found my engine was missing. Cylinders 5 and 7's spark plug wires are melted to my header.... GRRRR.... I sometimes get the idea this car doesn't want to run well. This engine ran over 3k miles in my posession in a truck no problems... anyway hopefully I'm on the right track.

I also get a heavy engine vibration around 3k sitting in Park, but both mounts are fine...



If I don't blow up the car or sell it out of frustration those are 2 things high on the list, thanks for backing that up 8)



I have a manual radiator w/electric fan and external bigass cooler for the trans oil, but I wanna get an oil temp gauge on the trans oil once I go High stall...

Sounds like you made some good progress. That's good. Bummer on the plug wires. How did you have the plug wires ran on # 5 & 7? That's a big problem with headers cause there's not enough room to run them between the header pipe and flange so they burn up. I used 90* plug connectors on those cylinders and ran them underneath the pipe. No more problems burning wires.

 

[DQ81]

Sounds like you made some good progress. That's good. Bummer on the plug wires. How did you have the plug wires ran on # 5 & 7? That's a big problem with headers cause there's not enough room to run them between the header pipe and flange so they burn up. I used 90* plug connectors on those cylinders and ran them underneath the pipe. No more problems burning wires.

Real bummer and a PITA. Had them run with long style plugs touching the headers...Funny thing is the headers on the truck sat a bit further down so it wasn't an issue, it's my own fault.

Being the persistent b@stard I am, I decided after dinner to have a quick look under the Blazers hood (another project....) I remember it having 8mm wires with a 90* elbow on the plugs. I remembered correctly.

Pulled 2 wires and routed them exactly as you described above, great minds think alike, also it's the obvious way lol. On monday I'll get some 8mm and make them for the Dart, damn headers.

Turned the key and she fired right up, had been sitting for about an hour or two. Had to go for a quick drive just to make sure. She's running smooth again thank God, that means sleep tonight ;)

I do think my dizzy wants recurving to for my ap. though. How much total timing do I want with the vac. advance connected and at what RPM is ideal? Say 48* @ 2200 or so? I'm hitting mid 50's now...

Once properly warm with more initial advance the hesitation is just about gone.

Fishy68 what do you think about the 0-60 time I posted of 9.2 seconds consistently, that's not very quick by any standards. I don't know what a 318 in this application should/can do.

The next step after I've got the carb perfected and perhaps the timing curve if necessary (advice please!) is to rebuild my old extra 904 with the shift kit recommended and if I can higher gears for 1st and 2nd (where to look aftermarket? Google was useless and Summit's got nothin') and 3rd left as is. That with a 3.21's, the shift kit for better 0-60 times/feel and higher stall converter should give me the car I'm trying to get.

Which converters are people running/have you run and what do you like for street/fun/race application? Is a 3k stall overkill?

Stock is aprox. 1500 right? Any brand or size better or worse?

Thanks

David

PS: Tommorrow will be the first day in close to a year I'll be able to get in the Dart, start it and drive it...or did I just jinx myself?! :bootysha:

 

[fishy68]

As long as the vacuum advance is hooked up properly to a ported vacuum source you don't really have to worry much about the timing the vacuum advance induces unless it pings under moderate acceleration. When you floor it you loose vacuum to a ported source so the vacuum advance is no longe in play. Most I've seen produce anywhere from 50-54 degrees when the vacuum advance comes in.

The 9.2 seconds is pretty slow, sorry to say. A good converter will knock a couple seconds off that as long as you don't spin the tires.

I won't ever hesitate to run a 3k converter on the street again after seeing how mine works. As far as converters go a general rule of thumb is the more expensive ones are better. But I don't think you need to spend $1000 on your setup to make it right. If you really want the best call Lenny at Ultimate converter and have him build you one to your cars specs. It might cost $500+ but it'll be a fantastic converter. If you don't have that much money try a PTC. That's what I run and it works real good. Got mine from Cope Racing Trans.

 

[DQ81]

As long as the vacuum advance is hooked up properly to a ported vacuum source you don't really have to worry much about the timing the vacuum advance induces unless it pings under moderate acceleration. When you floor it you loose vacuum to a ported source so the vacuum advance is no longe in play. Most I've seen produce anywhere from 50-54 degrees when the vacuum advance comes in.

Ok cool, good to know. As everything without the vac. port connected is dialed in around 1800/1900 RPM I don't think I need to recurve anything. Chime in if you disagree.

The 9.2 seconds is pretty slow, sorry to say. A good converter will knock a couple seconds off that as long as you don't spin the tires.

That's what I'm sayin' I pulled this motor out of a D250 Crew Cab and it feels just a few seconds faster in the Dart, I suppose it shows how important gearing is. The truck was an '81 so might have had steeper 1st and 2nd gears in the 727, and the rear end was probably a 4.10 (ex army tow rig, with 90kph as top speed sticker on dash) as it hit about 4k RPM at 135 kph if not more (this was by ear)

I won't ever hesitate to run a 3k converter on the street again after seeing how mine works. As far as converters go a general rule of thumb is the more expensive ones are better. But I don't think you need to spend $1000 on your setup to make it right. If you really want the best call Lenny at Ultimate converter and have him build you one to your cars specs. It might cost $500+ but it'll be a fantastic converter. If you don't have that much money try a PTC. That's what I run and it works real good. Got mine from Cope Racing Trans.

The converter and trans seem to be the bottleneck in launch and acceleration respectivly. One of my concerns is budget, I've got aprox 400 to 500 to spend, less if possible (more to other stuff) the other major concern for me is shipping costs over here. Also as I may change the cam or drop in a 360 at some point I'd like to stay with a generic converter that could be an 'on the shelf unit' even over here.

So 3k stall eh? Not overkill for my 318? How does it react to rond town 'normal' driving and how does that compare to stock? I was looking at the Hughes converters that stall at 2500 RPM advertised. Any idea of the quality of these units?

Thanks again for sound advice man, you've really helped me get my car on track and I'm learning a lot in the process, stuff I knew but now understand how to apply it.

Cheers,

David

 

[fishy68]

I think your timing is real close from what you've described.

If that truck was an Army tow rig it might have even had lower than 4:10 gears. They gear them way down. I've seen 4:88's in an army truck.

The converter I have in my car now acts pretty much like a stock converter around town. The only diff. I noticed from stock is when I pop it into gear it isn't so harsh since I have to have the idle at 850 cause of the cam. It takes off with just the lightest touch of the throttle. We used a Hughes converter in a buddies truck once and it didn't stall as high as advertised. That was in a 1 ton extended cab 4x4 with a 454. If anything it should have stalled more than advertised since the truck weighed over 7000 lbs. But it did hold up good and he ran it real hard.

I just looked on CRT's site and they say they are custom built for each application. The 11" is the cheapest of course at $279. Then you jump up to the 9.5" at $479 and the smallest one they have is a 3k stall. I could've swore they had a 10" also. I thought that's what I have but it's been a few yrs. so I might be remembering wrong.

Glad to help.

 

[DQ81]

Yeah, the gearing on that thing must have been pretty steep...

What's the correlation between the converter size and end result?

So the Hughes your buddy had stalled earlier than advertised?

I read another post in which you described the two types of converters, tight and loose I believe, I'd say I want a tight 2500 to 3k converter that does actually stall at those speeds lol.

 

[fishy68]

The smaller the converter the more efficient. That's why race cars run real small converters.

Yeah my buddies only stalled at 17-1800 and was rated at 2k. That surprised us since the truck was so heavy and the engine was a torquey big block.

Yes you want a "tight" converter. Most made nowadays are except race units.

I'm not really a torque converter guru so if somebody else can add something that'd be great. Lenny at Ultimate converter is a member here on the board and knows tons more than me about them. If you search for ultimatelenny and PM him I'm sure he can tell you more.

Here's his website

http://www.ultimateconverter.com/

 

[DQ81]

Change the rear end gear ratio to a sure-grip with a 3.91 or 4.10 gear set. You`ll lose top end speed but improve your 0-60 time.

I'm working on getting the right converter for my app, figuring out if I'm keeping this cam etc. and thus what stall speed to go with.

In the meantime I've decided that depending on the gearing and width of my budies Ramcharger 8.75 suregrip (if it doesn't fit or have 4.10's) I wanna build my 8.25 to a Suregrip or at least change the gears to 4.10's...

How hard is it? I want 4.10's w/ suregrip idealy. That should be good w/ the right stall converter.

Just gears shouldn't be to tough, but the suregrip seems like it will be a PITA.

Advice?

Seems like the parts are pretty much the same everywhere pricewise...

 

[Longgone]

I'm working on getting the right converter for my app, figuring out if I'm keeping this cam etc. and thus what stall speed to go with.

In the meantime I've decided that depending on the gearing and width of my budies Ramcharger 8.75 suregrip (if it doesn't fit or have 4.10's) I wanna build my 8.25 to a Suregrip or at least change the gears to 4.10's...

How hard is it? I want 4.10's w/ suregrip idealy. That should be good w/ the right stall converter.

Just gears shouldn't be to tough, but the suregrip seems like it will be a PITA.

Advice?

Seems like the parts are pretty much the same everywhere pricewise...

I`d wait and do both the gear and suregrip together. If you only install the gears you will have a time getting the car to launch hard without wheel spin. Traction will be a real issue with a higher numerical ring and pinion set.

 

[DQ81]

I`d wait and do both the gear and suregrip together. If you only install the gears you will have a time getting the car to launch hard without wheel spin. Traction will be a real issue with a higher numerical ring and pinion set.

Oke, so you're saying lower gears will get me peg legging myself crazy? I can see that, although with 295/50's traction is pretty darn good.

Let's say I go for the suregrip internals with the 4.10 gears, total cost aprox 450 USD. What's the process for swapping my old gears for the new setup?

Will I need to remove the axle/diff from the vehicle or can it be done on a lift with still in the car?

Special tools?

Do I need to remove my driveshafts etc?

I'm just trying to get a scope of the work here to plan it in...

 

[fishy68]

I agree that you should install them at the same time. It can be done on a lift. You do need to remove the driveshaft. I'd suggest finding a book or video on how to do it since you haven't ever done it before. If things aren't done properly you'll have gear whine or worse, trash the new gears.

 

[DQ81]

I`d wait and do both the gear and suregrip together. If you only install the gears you will have a time getting the car to launch hard without wheel spin. Traction will be a real issue with a higher numerical ring and pinion set.

I agree that you should install them at the same time. It can be done on a lift. You do need to remove the driveshaft. I'd suggest finding a book or video on how to do it since you haven't ever done it before. If things aren't done properly you'll have gear whine or worse, trash the new gears.

Makes sense, no special tools required? Nothing needs to be pressed in etc.?

By driveshafts, I meant the two left/right going from diff to wheels.

I'm not a real termonologist (I just made that up...)

thanks,

 

[Longgone]

If you shop around you may be able to find a gear set and sure-grip unit for a bargain price. Check here and on Ebay, it`s a buyers market right now. I`m not familiar with the 8.25 differentials, but I do know you can do the swap on a lift. You`ll have to remove your driveshaft and axles. See if you can find someone who`s done a ring and pinion set up before, they should be able to help guide you through the procedure. As far as special tools I`m pretty certain you`ll need a dial indicator. There may be some other things you`ll need, perhaps somebody here that`s done some will chime in with the info you need.

 

[fishy68]

Makes sense, no special tools required? Nothing needs to be pressed in etc.?

By driveshafts, I meant the two left/right going from diff to wheels.

I'm not a real termonologist (I just made that up...)

thanks,

yes there are special tools needed. A 0-100 inch lb. dial type (rotating) torque wrench. A ft. lb. torque wrench capable of 100 ft. lbs. Yoke holder. Large socket set with a stout breaker bar. A hydraulic press to press on the new bearings. A differential pinion depth kit. I think that's all. If anybody else sees I missed something please speak up.

Ok you mean the axles. Yes they have to com out along with the driveshaft from the trans.

 

[fishy68]

Sorry LG didn't mean to mimic you. I was writing as you were posting. Glad you remembered the dial indicator. That's one I forgot.

 

[Longgone]

Sorry LG didn't mean to mimic you. I was writing as you were posting. Glad you remembered the dial indicator. That's one I forgot.

No prob, I`m watching the football game so it`s taking me forever to complete one post. :toothy10:

 

[DQ81]

yes there are special tools needed. A 0-100 inch lb. dial type (rotating) torque wrench. A ft. lb. torque wrench capable of 100 ft. lbs. Yoke holder. Large socket set with a stout breaker bar. A hydraulic press to press on the new bearings. A differential pinion depth kit. I think that's all. If anybody else sees I missed something please speak up.

Ok you mean the axles. Yes they have to com out along with the driveshaft from the trans.

I'll check Ebay and on here too, thanks.
Torque wrench: check
Yoke holder: I'll think of something
Stout breaker and 3/4ths set: check
Hydraulic press is at the local mechanics I can use his...

Pinion depth kit?
Dial type torque wrench?

I might just be sol here in Europeland lol, see if I can't find me a complete rear end first by the sound of things. I'd like to rebuild it myself but the right tools for the job are crucial.

 

[MopaR&D]

I think your centrifugal advance is coming in way too quick, if it's really all in by 1800 RPM as you say. Should go to about 36* around 2500 RPM or so. Also, as far as vacuum advance goes the more the better. Just keep dialing in more and more until there's pinging going up slight hills or when accelerating slowly. 50*+ a few is about right for final + vacuum advance.

I think the best course of action would be to pull your 904 and rebuild it with the A-999 gearset (lower 1st and 2nd gear), a good shift kit, and a good 2600 RPM stall converter. That might work out nicely with your stock gears (which are 2.94's, right?) but you'll "round out" the drivetrain with some 3.23s or 3.55s. I think 4.10s are unnecessary and will make highway driving a nightmare. They may make your launch very quick but top speed, gas mileage, and engine longevity will become issues with your mild 318.

 

[DQ81]

Other projects have kept me busy but I'm gettin there on this pickle....

Hey DQ81,I took Fishy68,s advise on the trans-go 2 kit also a 2500 stall for my 360.Works well!Thanks again Fishy68!

I`d wait and do both the gear and suregrip together. If you only install the gears you will have a time getting the car to launch hard without wheel spin. Traction will be a real issue with a higher numerical ring and pinion set.

I'm still not sure if I wanna do gears first or stall converter, I like my 3.23's for highway but can pick up a 3.91 suregrip 8 1/4 for 300 bucks, all still in packaging.... it's tempting...could always switch back to 3.23's

Once that Suregrip is in there isn't changing between the 3.23's and the 3.91's easy? Say a set for the track and the other for daily?

With a 2500 stall, transGo kit and 3.91 S/G it should be pretty darn quick of the line and cruise at 3.6k at 75 Mph with my tires, 275/60/15....

That's not even that bad....

Best bang for buck converter?