j par
Well-hung Member
What are they good for ? And what are they bad for? How do they work?
what's the point of total seal rings ?
- Thread starter j par
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Darthomas
Ashamed to be seen in foreign cars
The gaps are not in line with each other, so there is slightly less leakage, and not as critical in fitting the gap to the cylinder.
Good for cheap rebuild when not overboring.
Good for cheap rebuild when not overboring.
I've never used them. I think they are used in extreme level, high performance engines. I'm sure if I'm wrong it won't take me long to be corrected..... LOL!
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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If you're asking about gapless,I understand the theory, but cannot cite real world results.
The idea with rings is the less pressure loss past the rings, the more pressure is available to push the crank around. Less pressure-loss should translate to more horsepower to the track.
All ICE(Internal Combustion Engine) horsepower is created by the pressure of the hot expanding gasses. It is written that of all this created heat; 1/3 gets into the cooling system, and 1/3 goes out the hot exhaust, leaving just 1/3 for doing the work.
So imagine an engine in which this 1/3 heat of expanding gasses equals 420hp with a typical ring seal of say 2 to 4 %. Then imagine this same engine in which the ring seal is closer to zero. How much more power would that translate to? IDK, but I imagine it would be more.
Now consider that every single moment that the engine is running, the rings are wearing, and the gaps are growing.........But the gapless design with overlapping ends are continuously compensating. Yeah sooner or later they wear out too.
I like the theory behind these,cuz I suppose a guy could run them in a dual purpose machine with hypers, running a bit extra gaps, and not have to worry about pressure loss on the street, nor tearing off the top ring lands on race-day,from too-tight gaps.
On a different note;
In the end I went with with Plasma-moly file-fits. I had excellent results,with nearly immeasurable pressure loss on the LD tester at 100 psi on the day of install; and still was nearly so, 4 years later, with over 30,000 miles. I haven't checked them now for over 10 years, and the engine currently has over 100,000 miles.It still doesn't use oil.Somewhere between 50,000 and 80,000miles (I'm guessing a bit), it went 93 in the 1/8th. At my race-weight 3650,I think that translates to 420hp.I was ecstatic.
The idea with rings is the less pressure loss past the rings, the more pressure is available to push the crank around. Less pressure-loss should translate to more horsepower to the track.
All ICE(Internal Combustion Engine) horsepower is created by the pressure of the hot expanding gasses. It is written that of all this created heat; 1/3 gets into the cooling system, and 1/3 goes out the hot exhaust, leaving just 1/3 for doing the work.
So imagine an engine in which this 1/3 heat of expanding gasses equals 420hp with a typical ring seal of say 2 to 4 %. Then imagine this same engine in which the ring seal is closer to zero. How much more power would that translate to? IDK, but I imagine it would be more.
Now consider that every single moment that the engine is running, the rings are wearing, and the gaps are growing.........But the gapless design with overlapping ends are continuously compensating. Yeah sooner or later they wear out too.
I like the theory behind these,cuz I suppose a guy could run them in a dual purpose machine with hypers, running a bit extra gaps, and not have to worry about pressure loss on the street, nor tearing off the top ring lands on race-day,from too-tight gaps.
On a different note;
In the end I went with with Plasma-moly file-fits. I had excellent results,with nearly immeasurable pressure loss on the LD tester at 100 psi on the day of install; and still was nearly so, 4 years later, with over 30,000 miles. I haven't checked them now for over 10 years, and the engine currently has over 100,000 miles.It still doesn't use oil.Somewhere between 50,000 and 80,000miles (I'm guessing a bit), it went 93 in the 1/8th. At my race-weight 3650,I think that translates to 420hp.I was ecstatic.
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They are good for taking your money. Every person I know of or heard of that ever used them had trouble with them.
mguner
How many is too many?
Only one ring in the set is the "gapless" one. the cross section looks like an "L" and it has a rail insert like the oil ring to seal the gap. I have used Total Seal brand on a couple of engines and noticed some improvement on crankcase evacuation. I have no other real comparison data.
grimreaper
Cross Member
The first gapless rings I encountered were from Child and Albert back in 1975. I put a set in a 340 and the guy is still running it. Those were the style with the overlapping ends. Supposedly eliminates any compression leak through the ring gap. I don't know if they provided any actual benefit other than lightening his wallet.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I've probably used 100 sets.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I hooked a blowby meter (just a simple manometer) to a 400 Chevy that no matter how well the bore was prepped, it would bury the meter 1.3-1.5 seconds into the dyno pull. You could watch it build pressure from the hit. If you made a long enough pul it would eventually hit 12 inches on the gauge.
Swapped in the Total Seal gapless tops and no matter how hard you pulled on it, it would never go more than 2 inches on the manometer. I tested a couple more engines that were less prone to ring seal issues but I always found better seal UNDER LOAD with the gapless TOP rings. Use them in my engine that I may stick in the hole today.
Done correctly, any ring will seal. Depends on what you expect, how you evacuate the crankcase, how you finish the bores and a couple other things.
If your Total Seal rings didn't work, find a different machinist.
BTW, gapless second rings have been around for long before the gapless top. That ring set has some issues. Gapless Top ring technology was done because the Pro Stock, Comp, and I assume ASScar guys were ESSENTIALLY running gapless top rings so Total Seal found a way to almost duplicate what costs thousands of dollars to do...run essentially a gapless top ring. Either way, you better have your second ring correct, or the top will unseat under load.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
They are good for people who can't afford to prep a cylinder or an engine like Pro Stock does.
They are a bit bad for your wallet if you are on the scotch side. Or, you run an .043/.043 ring pack (or thinner) and gas ports and a vacuum pump.
If you want me to say how they work, see my response to RRR.
If you want me to delve into piston ring function, that would require and aj length reply, maybe longer. Don't really want to type that much.
But a couple things to consider...rings seal to the bore and the piston. Radial tension counts very little to ring seal. Thinner rings are better. Period.
Other than that, I'd have to type too much.
j par
Well-hung Member
Well that's what I have on now as they came with the stroker kit. I was wondering if they make any difference over I guess a standard piston ring. My concerns are Further that I'm thinking this winter I may throw up to a 150 shot at the car For Kicks....
Scotch is what you DRINK.
A scot.
The Scottish.
He is a Scot.
They are Scottish.
And... "I'm so cheap with my money because it's so damned expensive!"
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
You'll be ok with a 150 shot on them. They'll take a bit abuse.
Must have been a pretty good stoker kit to have gapless top rings in it. I haven't looked at kits in a while though. You get the kit from Kenny??
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Ya know, a guy that used to come into a shop I worked at always sniveled because his partner in his race car was cheap. He called him scotch. I picked up his bad lingo. Sort of like socks on a rooster and hemi dong beater.
I have no doubt in the examples I've seen, there was human error involved. Kinda like the KB hyper pistons. If you don't follow instructions, it ain't gonna work. I will still use conventional rings though.......probably because my racing days are long gone. All I wanna do at this point is have a little fun on the street.
j par
Well-hung Member
[QUOTE="RustyRatRod, post: All I wanna do at this point is have a little fun on the street with my limp member.[/QUOTE]
And this can be seen on Rusty rat rods guide to thread Hot Rodding mediocracy LOL
And this can be seen on Rusty rat rods guide to thread Hot Rodding mediocracy LOL
j par
Well-hung Member
I told my wife I'm starting crap with Triple R she said I thought you guys were getting along and I said well we were lol
j par
Well-hung Member
Fuwie! All I get is a couple likes and no zinger of a comeback? What the heck! Are you feeling okay Triple R?
j par
Well-hung Member
I can't give away all my secrets LOL and by the way I'll be at t&t tonight in case you can Band-Aid that junk together. Oops I meant slow junk...
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I can't give away all my secrets LOL and by the way I'll be at t&t tonight in case you can Band-Aid that junk together. Oops I meant slow junk...
I'm feeling like steaming dog poop right now. I am going to go out and drop the engine in it, even though I don't feel like it. Won't have header gaskets until Monday afternoon.
I wanted to dyno the piece of junk, but it's been apart since 1/10/14 and I'm old enough to tip over at any moment. I need to make it run. I'll probably even say screw it, and violate another of my hard and fast rules and not put a hole in the can. My other car I could have the can off in half an hour. This pig is a mother bear to work on.
Take video tonight.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
And this can be seen on Rusty rat rods guide to thread Hot Rodding mediocracy LOL
[/QUOTE]When you get to be our age, you will learn sex is like shooting pool with a rope.
j par
Well-hung Member
I think triple R's only 2 years older than me please tell me it's not going to fall apart that quick!
When you get to be our age, you will learn sex is like shooting pool with a rope.[/QUOTE]
And this can be seen on Rusty rat rods guide to thread Hot Rodding mediocracy LOL
When you get to be our age, you will learn sex is like shooting pool with a rope.[/QUOTE]
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
It goes away REAL quick.
WTF???. No offense but I thought I saw a pic of RRR and I thought he was in his 50's. Maybe it wasn't him with his straw hat on.
WTF???. No offense but I thought I saw a pic of RRR and I thought he was in his 50's. Maybe it wasn't him with his straw hat on.
j par
Well-hung Member
Well I can only take that as a compliment and yes I believe Triple R is in his early fifties. Ironically I'm out here given everybody s*** this morning and getting compliments? lesson learned....
I don't wanna start too much.......since we have been gettin along SO well. lol
j par
Well-hung Member
Sorry I've been a little bored lately. Not too much work at work then nothing majorly broken on the car knock on wood so just a little test and tune tonight maybe get it out of my system.
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