Where's my electrical gremlins? Wont start!

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woodchip

woodchip

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I have some starting issues which popped up recently, and currently am at a loss. When the ignition is turned to start it, there isn't a crank, sputter, click..... anything. (This may sound weird) but when i mess with the headlights by turning them on and off a couple times, then leaving them on, then turning the ignition switch to start followed by turning the lights off, then itll start.(still holding the ignition on the start position). I have put a new battery, checked the power coming from both the battery and the starter relay(everything checks out good up to the starter relay power wise with voltmeter) Checked the connections on the starter, as well as the ignition switch itself. I changed out the ignition switch as well, and to no surprise, it didnt fix anything so the old one was put back in. Another weird thing, i changed the starter relay as well......nothing. When the terminals are jumped on the relay, itll crank over just fine. Any ideas of what could be causing this? Im not sure if this could be a related issue as well, but when the sucker gets hot,(after i do the starting procedure mentioned above) itll just crank over and it will not start until i let it sit for about 10 min to cool down.
 
no clue as to what we are working on here, but , the starter relay needs to see a ground/Neutral Safety Switch. double check ALL your grounds. you really need to get you a service manual and test your system
 
You started it will start after it coold down. Sounds like an electrical resistance somewhere. Could be one of the ground wires or connections. My 66 Monacos 383 had a small bad spot in the main ground one time, a mechanic friend of mine found it by taking the wires and bending them until he found a spot which did not bend, due to the wired arced, melted and recooled. In the beginning it would start cold, but when heated up after driving would not. After a while would not start at all. Don't know if it will help, but you will know what it is not.
 
It does sound like a ground, especially because of the headlight mention.
An intermittant ground issue.



73AbodEE said:
no clue as to what we are working on here, but , the starter relay needs to see a ground/Neutral Safety Switch. double check ALL your grounds. you really need to get you a service manual and test your system
Click to expand...
 
Had a similar problem on my Barracuda - Sometimes it would crank and not start - other times no crank or click etc. Found it was a broken Fusable link and a Bad pick up coil. the Link worked intermittently as the wires were moved trying to figure out the no start problem. Good luck.
 
What "we" are working on here (I say "we" because YOU all are the ones giving me the much appreciated advice :notworth: !) is a '77 ramcharger w/a modestly modified '70 440. A Father - Son project that we did from '07 to '09. He's been driving it since high school, now college. Back then, we bought 2 new underhood harnesses: motor & lights . Inside has the new bulkhead connector, fuse box, ignition & turnsignal. So all new wiring in it except for the rear. In other words: we touched everything so I'm not about to discount any advice on solving this. FABO has the most knowledgable electrical gurus. These problems have been surfacing and he's been throwing new cables and solonoids and etc. at it since. I'm stumped.
 
73AbodEE said:
no clue as to what we are working on here, but , the starter relay needs to see a ground/Neutral Safety Switch. double check ALL your grounds. you really need to get you a service manual and test your system
Click to expand...
I have a service manual... is it the wiring diagram I'm looking for? I changed the nuetral switch twice and then bought a new wire harness for it. Are you sugesting the ground to it may be bad?
 
I recently pulled my bulk head connectors and some of the male pins wanted to back out, so check them to see if they are held tightly in the plug. Clean both sides (male and female of the plug/firewall) really well.
 
woodchip said:
I have a service manual... is it the wiring diagram I'm looking for? I changed the nuetral switch twice and then bought a new wire harness for it. Are you sugesting the ground to it may be bad?
Click to expand...

our in house electrical guru 67Dart273, seems to be off the clock at the moment LOL so i am going to say that somewhere between the relay and the NSS, the relay is not getting a good ground because you can start it at the relay.i recently had the same issue with my duster, having the exact symptoms as you. you can take the NSS connector off and with a piece of wire, jump the connector to see if thats the problem. something to check for now. 67 may jump in here and help in a bit.
 
AHamilton said:
You started it will start after it coold down. Sounds like an electrical resistance somewhere. Could be one of the ground wires or connections. My 66 Monacos 383 had a small bad spot in the main ground one time, a mechanic friend of mine found it by taking the wires and bending them until he found a spot which did not bend, due to the wired arced, melted and recooled. In the beginning it would start cold, but when heated up after driving would not. After a while would not start at all. Don't know if it will help, but you will know what it is not.
Click to expand...
Thats a good idea, I think I'll go over all that.....when the temperature dips a little below " HOLY CRAP!!". I can't touch the hood right now :tongue10:. Maybe by changing all the wiring, some of the grounds came loose or weren't done good enough when we built it.
 
if it cranks all day w/o starting, after starting previously...then fired up the next day just fine, it's a magnetic pickup coil in the distributor. this is sometimes misdiagnosed as flooding, or overheating...guys think just because it was running before means it can't possibly be electrical. when it's pulling one of these cranking fits, pull a wire and stick a plug in it. hold that plug to the block. if you see a spark then it's not electrical. if it cranks and doesn't spark, go get a $15 pickup coil from autozone and you'll solve the problem.if it doesn't crank period, check your battery terminals. sometimes new battery terminals are a few thousandths smaller diameter and although they fell tight, they arent. even with dome lights on the terminals can be loose enough to prevent cranking

next make sure the block itself is grounded to the frame. the starter and engine aren't necessarily going to ground through polyurethane motor mounts and aluminum painted transmission bellhousings.

good luck!
 
73AbodEE said:
if thats the case, you have serious bulkhead connector issues that can cause serious damage or will just quit working all together
Click to expand...
Speaking of the bulkhead, when I installed the new one, some of the wires had to have new ends put on them, I didn't have/couldn't find the right connectors so I re-used the old ones. Thats a good idea, thank you. I'm going to go through the bulkhead.
 
woodchip said:
Speaking of the bulkhead, when I installed the new one, some of the wires had to have new ends put on them, I didn't have/couldn't find the right connectors so I re-used the old ones. Thats a good idea, thank you. I'm going to go through the bulkhead.
Click to expand...

not to be confused, another guy up top made a statement that i was responding to. as long as yours are clean and tight, they should be good.
 
73AbodEE said:
our in house electrical guru 67Dart273, seems to be off the clock at the moment LOL so i am going to say that somewhere between the relay and the NSS, the relay is not getting a good ground because you can start it at the relay.i recently had the same issue with my duster, having the exact symptoms as you. you can take the NSS connector off and with a piece of wire, jump the connector to see if thats the problem. something to check for now. 67 may jump in here and help in a bit.
Click to expand...
OFF THE CLOCK???!!! What are we paying him for??? Just kidding, I've been reading a lot of his posts and he does give some good advice and in a way that someone "simple" like myself can understand.
 
woodchip said:
OFF THE CLOCK???!!! What are we paying him for??? Just kidding, I've been reading a lot of his posts and he does give some good advice and in a way that someone "simple" like myself can understand.
Click to expand...
hes the man, he has helped me fix a few things including the start relay/ground problem and charging problems. post up some pics of your starter relay
 
This is the guy we're working with. He's standing in front of MY Duster. Of course the pictures are 9 years old:-\"
 

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I think I posted this before on another thread. but ill post it again and this was just what i happened to find with my car.

check the flat plastic connectors at the bottom steering column. They are round pin and socket the out part was not snug to the male end of the connector.I think in my car they have been rather seen better days.
 
He learned at a yound age the power of Mopars. It's in his blood, from Dad & Mom. This is on the day I was headed to buy new tires....Thought it was a good idea at the time :)
 

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Here's the guy, a little bigger than when he was burning my tires off the LRT.. Not sure what he's up to in this picture, but I'm just stalling for time while he takes a picture of the relay switch. He's done good at making his friends aware of the Mopar nation, they all respect Ma-Mopar and have taken on wrenching on thier own rides rather than letting mom & dad buy them. When we figure out this electric problem, his buddies will think he's the MAN!
 

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OK

1 you've changed the ignition switch

2 changed the starter relay

3 it cranks seemingly every time when you jumper the starter relay?

This sounds like the circuit that energizes the start relay which is very simple

You have a dedicated "start" wire coming off the ignition switch which is traditionally yellow/ yellow tracer

(These did NOT have seat belt interlocks, did they?)

The start wire comes directly from the IGN switch, through the bulkhead, and ends on one of the "push on" terminals of the start relay.

The remaining terminal of the start relay goes down to the center terminal of your neutral safety switch, and sees a ground in either park or neutral.

SO identify the two wires, normally yellow and brown, or refer to your wiring diagram

Remove the one going to the NSS, (should be the only one going down behind the engine) and clip lead the terminal of the relay you just unhooked.

CAREFUL It will now crank and start in ANY gear!!!

Now try it and start/ drive/ restart it long enough to determine IF that hid the problem.

If so, a bad NSS, bad connector, or broken wiring from the NSS up to the relay

If this does NOT hide the problem, and IF you do not have seat belt interlocks, it probably is a bad connection right in the bulkhead connector.

I was out riding my trike today

(I'm not nearly as cranky as I look. This was a self timer on the camera, only 10 seconds to get from the camera and "posed")
 

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Heres the relay, dont mind one of the red wires as its for the radio.
 

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