Small Hughes cam in 318

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LowDeck451

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I have a Hughes HEH 215/223 cam in a budget 318 shortblock and for the fun of it I checked their cam specs against my measurements. Cam is 112* LSA, (ICL 109*, mine went in at 107*).
I ended up very close to the specs they list, (215* @.050 Int./ .462" lift/ 36* ICA @.050"- I got 35*) but I was curious about the ADV. Dur. and Intake Closing Angle, which Hughes doesn't list. I measured these at .006" (seems to be the most common?).

I got an ADV. Dur. @.006 of 269* and an ICA of 61*

These were more than I expected.
Does this sound like a lot for a 215* @ .050 cam?
I sure could've made a mistake, but since I was close with the listed specs, I dunno.
Thanks.
 
That doesn't sound very good does it?
Did it measure 215 @.050?
You can usually compute the ICA from the Duration and the ICL (installed centerline)
Say you install it 4 * advanced at 108;( hyup 112 less 4 =108,I checked it this time,lol)
So in at 108, just take 215 over 2, less 108, and add that to a full circle or 360* ,and then subtract the intake duration.Subtract that from 180, and This is how it looks;
180 less[{(215/2 less 108) plus 360{ less215] =180 less (.5 +360-215)=34.5
But as you can see, this is the .050 spec. You got 36 and spec is 36, so they are not wanting a 108 install.

When you get down to those very small lift measurements, it gets really tricky to measure. You more or less need a solid lifter, or a hydro with the cup blocked to the top. And checking springs are preferred. Otherwise you can't be sure the lifter is not bleeding down.
However 269 less 215 = 54* ramps and that is borderline ridiculously slow ramps from a company that advertises fast-rate,made for-.904-lifters, hype.
So let's suppose your measurements are bang on, and you put that into an 8/1 teener. Your 35*ICA translates to a 107.5ICL, and that translates to an ICA of 62 with a 269 Adv.
1) So in at 107.5 and an ICA of 62 here it is;
Static compression ratio of 8.0:1.
Effective stroke is 2.61 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.51:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 121.91 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 93...........................................................93
As you can see from the numbers this s gonna be a real dog off the line and all the way to 3000rpm or more. To correct this the first go-to is compression. Here is the exact same combo at 10/1
2) Static compression ratio of 10:1.
Effective stroke is 2.61 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.09:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.22 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 124.........................................................124
Notice the cylinder pressure is at the max for a tightQ engine and pump gas. Also that the VP has climbed to 124 which is 124/93= plus33% stronger off-the-line performance.

3) now let's compare that to the stock 318 with the 240/112 cam, ICA of 48*
Static compression ratio of 7.9:1.
Effective stroke is 2.89 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.02:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 134.74 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 112.................................................112
ok, so now you can see that your off-the-line is 124/112=plus10.7% better than the stocker. Instead of 93/112= 17% weaker!

And that's just with a compression change.
However, in this case, because of the slow ramps, this may not be totally accurate, cuz nothing ever really happens until the valve is up in the .050 region, which is why cams have that standardized spec.
But what does happen is at the overlap cycle. You measured that 215 to be a 269 which is a 54 * ramp allowance, If you add that same 54* to the 223 exhaust side then you come up with a 269/277/112 cam, and that has
(269+277)/2 less (2x112) =49 degrees of overlap! That's a lot! for such a small cam, and it does two things; one we like is the idle lope;and one we don't, and that is to allow the piston to push,at low rpm, some of the inducted charge back up into the intake. This makes for terrible fuel consumption when operated in this zone........which is what streeters do most of the time.And;just to remind you, the 69 340 cams had 44* of overlap, and perhaps you remember what those idled like.And perhaps you remember the lousy fuel-economy those cams had.And thinking about it, your cam has very similar specs to that 340 cam which was 268/276/114, compared to your possible 269/277/112,DOH!

Now If you were to ask me; If I had a cam with a 269 intake duration I would want 269* worth of performance, and this cam will not deliver.(Hang on, that is not totally accurate. It will not deliver a bottom-end, and it will not deliver a midrange, and it will not deliver any reasonable fuel economy. Now, it will give good passing-gear power if geared right, and it will have a bit of a "poser" idle lope). In fact I have shown that at the factory compression ratio,it will be a dog off the line; the VP of 93 clearly shows that. You will need a very un street-friendly TC and decidedly large rear gears to get anything but a very light car, moving. Ima thinking a 3000TC and 3.73s minimum, and don't be checking the fuel consumption,lol. The 3000 will get you past the soft part, and the 3.73s will help her get to the power in a reasonable amount of time.3.73s and 3500(where the power will begin), makes 28 mph. See what I mean?
Ok maybe a 2800 with those 3.73s,lol.
Now if this is a 10/1 engine, the VP clearly shows an improvement in the take-off department, and Ima thinking the stock TC , while @1850ish is a bit low, non-the-less it will get moving. And I still wouldn't try her with 2.73s if I was looking for oomph, but rather 3.23s, at the very minimum.

It is for this very reason that I won't be buying another Hughes cam, until they start publishing comparative advertised durations.

Now before you get too discouraged, go back and remeasure with a locked up lifter and an adjustable pushrod,lol. If your lifter bled just a few thou, it will really mess up ALL your measurements. The fact that she measured right, at .050,tho, leads me to believe your advertised measurements.
Yeah, my heart is crying for you too.

And here's a freebie. Lets say you found a 215/223/106 cam. I say 106cuz this is a 1-gear for performance combo, right;no racing. And let's say the ramps were a more reasonable 40 degrees, making this a 255/263/106 cam. And say you had a 9.2 Scr, OK in at 102, the ICA is 49.5, and, we get
Static compression ratio of 9.2:1.
4) Effective stroke is 2.87 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.10:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.48 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 8.10 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 136.........................................136!

Ok now yer talking VP! 136/112= plus 21.4% over the stocker, and TONS of teener torque, and the 255 will make a similar average power to your Hughes cam, but because of the tighter LSA will make a bit more specific power, at the expense of the powerband, so like I say, a 1-gear runner. Use with a 2800 and 3.23s and she will blast to 56mph at 5800 with 27s . And with 49* of overlap, will sound just like the Hughes and suffer the same lousy fuel economy, while screaming the tires all the way to redline. Oh yeah and she requires premium gas when heavily loaded. Unless you have tight quench, then maybe not.
 
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What about the rest of your combo ?
Gears stall tires intake carb exhaust cr etc...
If everything is stock or just above I'd go smaller on cam
 
Thanks. Hmmm......
I used a solid lifter, only WD-40 on lifter and lobe (no surfing on grease lol) an adj. pushrod, hole in ball to center on pointed dial ind. tip. Shortblock only, no heads yet.
It did measure 215* @.050
Hughes said ground +3* for 109* (mine went in at 107*)
I read dur. directly off degree wheel for the 269* @.006"
 
What about the rest of your combo ?
Gears stall tires intake carb exhaust cr etc...
If everything is stock or just above I'd go smaller on cam
D100 pickup, 3.23 gears for now, O/D and 3.91 later.
I thought I was using a small cam. lol
 
D100 pickup, 3.23 gears for now, O/D and 3.91 later.
I thought I was using a small cam. lol
Oh that hurts,
Well .........................................................................a cam costs about what gears cost, and a proper "small"cam will let you keep the 3.23s, with the right TC.
Yup I caught post 4, it looks like you did your homework OK.

I put a 318-4bbl into my son's 84 D100 with 3.55s and 275/60-15s, and a 2800. That was my winter motor, a stock 1973 8/1 engine. and a SG,lol. And an A998 with the 2.74 low gear in it.
That thing was smoking hot. Sliding sideways thru the sweepers. But that truck had no traction, and terrible wheel-hop.. I had to fabricate a pinion snubber that was ugly as sin, but cured the wheel hop, while helping in the tire-smoking take-offs. That back-end weighs nothing! It wasn't long and we swapped OUT the 3.55s in favor of 3.23s. He liked that better, as he was spending a lot of money on gas. He was just 19 at the time. He drove that truck for maybe 9 or 10 years, as I recall.

3.91s might be a lil crazy, unless you figure out a way to make it hook.
But they are the right gear to use with the Dodge od trans. This will get you about 65=1800rpm with 28s. But that cam ain't gonna like 1800 much. Ima thinking 2200 or more, maybe best economy up near 2300.
The 3.23s and 28s will get you 65=2650ish, and that cam will be well into it's efficiency zone by then. Slow that brick down to 60 and you'll be at 2450ish, right on target. Put a 2.74 low in her, and a 2800TC and you're back in action.

If it was me, and I don't know what all your targets are,and if you don't have the SCR for it, I'd pull it. It's just wrong in too many ways, and at this point you can save the lifters. Just my opinion.
My second cam was a Hughes HE 2430AL, with specs of 223/230/110. The advertised was 270/276/110 so that's 47 degree ramps, none too fast. The overlap on that was 53. In a 367 with aluminum heads and a 10.9 Scr, she pulled real good fuel mileage, even down at 65=1600rpm. Compression is king!,lol.
 
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Small is relative. A stock 340 cam is is the 1st step on the performance ladder. But if you compare it's specs to most performance cam lines it's equal to 250 ish cam.

I'm guessing O/D 4 speed ?
O/D does have a deep 1st gear probably making 3.91 too large. AJ can figure that out for ya.

CR and weight are your biggest enemy.
Pick a cam that works with your cr and everything should be fine.
 
I forgot to mention that Hughes recommended not going over 9.25-1 CR. Using that and the ICA of 61.5* in the Wallace calc. gives me a DCR of 7.5 - and a Cranking Pressure of 145. I can get there with milling the 360 heads, block is already milled .030". Still no good? Judging by their 9.25 CR rec., I thought it was a small cam. lol Thanks.
 
I forgot to mention that Hughes recommended not going over 9.25-1 CR. Using that and the ICA of 61.5* in the Wallace calc. gives me a DCR of 7.5 - and a Cranking Pressure of 145. I can get there with milling the 360 heads, block is already milled .030". Still no good? Judging by their 9.25 CR rec., I thought it was a small cam. lol Thanks.
If you go with 3.91s, she'll have no problem at 9.25 burning any old gas. 7.5 is not in the basement yet. But again, band-aiding the cam with head-milling, costs about what a proper cam costs, and no milling;cuz cutting the heads is gonna require cutting the intake, and maybe the valley ledge too.
If you put those big-port heads on there with that cam, you are gonna need some higher compression, not for the pressure sake alone but also to get the air flowing early enough to not have the bottom end go limp on you.
So now, just what is your deck height, and are the pistons flat-tops?
 
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Stock pistons, no eyebrows, .046" in the hole. I've calc'd CR numbers with .027, .039, milling etc. I just found it odd that they would rec. that low a CR with that long a dur., (269* & 61* ABC) which then made me question what I was seeing on the degree wheel, ya know, was I reading something wrong? Anyway, it is what it is. Thanks guys.
 
If you go with 3.91s, she'll have no problem at 9.25 burning any old gas. 7.5 is not in the basement yet. But again, band-aiding the cam with head-milling, costs about what a proper cam costs, and no milling;cuz cutting the heads is gonna require cutting the intake, and maybe the valley ledge too.
If you put those big-port heads on there with that cam, you are gonna need some higher compression, not for the pressure sake alone but also to get the air flowing early enough to not have the bottom end go limp on you.
So now, just what is your deck height, and are the pistons flat-tops?
Depending on what 360 heads you have, the chambers are between 5 and10cc larger than the teen heads according to the charts. CC ing them will tell the truth. There is a loss of compression along with the camshaft size. I think the .215/.223 is a good place to start for a relative stock teen but with the advertised around 270° crowding the stock converter size for sure. We didn't hear how far in the hole the pistols are. Stock or have they been replaced? Quite a few unanswered questions.
 
Stock pistons, no eyebrows, .046" in the hole. I've calc'd CR numbers with .027, .039, milling etc. I just found it odd that they would rec. that low a CR with that long a dur., (269* & 61* ABC) which then made me question what I was seeing on the degree wheel, ya know, was I reading something wrong? Anyway, it is what it is. Thanks guys.
Your thinking is right.

But ohhh, .046 down with a 3.91bore is 9.05cc
Wait start over; to get to 9.25Scr with a stock-bore 318 requires a 78.95cc total chamber volume. With the pistons so far down; A) you cannot get any quench, and B) staying under 78.95cc is very difficult.
So 78.95 less 9.05 leaves 69.9cc for both gasket and head. That's gonna be real tough with those heads. And furthermore those heads are probably more head,than a 215 cam can make use of; at least most of the time. So what are your thoughts on ditching them?
With Magnum heads at about 63cc, getting 9.25Scr is a bolt-on deal, with an .028 gasket.And the Magnums are the right size for the teener.
Alternatively,closed-chamber teener heads will put the torque back in the low-rpm, at the possible expense of some power at higher rpm.Many persons scoff at those small port heads, but I can tell you that I once put some teener heads on a 340 and it flew on the street, with 2.76s,cuz the Rs were in the working range of those heads, most of the time!
But IMO, the best solution is a zero-deck, tight-Q,design. I'm pretty sure you're trying to avoid going this far, so I'm not sure what the answer might be for you. I know what I would do. Those 9cc in the deck height are a real killjoy.
 
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I was typing and researching when YCF was responding.
 
Here's a thread I started back when because I had the same questions about a stock teen only no 360 heads. I plan on going the other direction with closed chamber #302 casting heads. Much more efficient with smaller chambers and higher compression.

Cam choices for stock 318's
 
I think the advertised number of 61* is on the mark. The United Engine calculator requires you add 15* to the .050" duration to calculate. So with that in mind, that .61* would equate to 46* @ .050. Sounds right to me.

It's easy to get confused using advertised duration numbers. That's why I never use it. I don't ignore it, it's just "not as important" when trying to calculate other specs.
 
Well, the '318 or 360 head on a 318 engine' debate is one that I'm not gonna touch with a ten foot pole. lol
I only started this thread to see if I have some goofy, 'cam with no home'. Starting to think I do! lol
 
Well, the '318 or 360 head on a 318 engine' debate is one that I'm not gonna touch with a ten foot pole. lol
I only started this thread to see if I have some goofy, 'cam with no home'. Starting to think I do! lol
Just a bit too big for your combination I believe. You will loose too much bottom end,
 
Well, the '318 or 360 head on a 318 engine' debate is one that I'm not gonna touch with a ten foot pole. lol
I only started this thread to see if I have some goofy, 'cam with no home'. Starting to think I do! lol

I think the cam you have is correct. You are trying to over think it, IMO.
 
I think the advertised number of 61* is on the mark. The United Engine calculator requires you add 15* to the .050" duration to calculate. So with that in mind, that .61* would equate to 46* @ .050. Sounds right to me.

It's easy to get confused using advertised duration numbers. That's why I never use it. I don't ignore it, it's just "not as important" when trying to calculate other specs.
I just wanted to see what they were since Hughes doesn't say. Just curious. Actually, the ICA is 36*, not 46*.
 
I just wanted to see what they were since Hughes doesn't say. Just curious. Actually, the ICA is 36*, not 46*.

Then, your advertised duration is more like 51* and not 61*.....which is why I don't use the advertised.

Remember the old .480 lift 292 duration cams everybody made at one time years ago? All of them ranged from "around" 219 to "around" 230 "or so" , but their advertised durations were 292. This is why using the .050" figure is so much more accurate, IMO. It gives "the real" picture of "what" the cam "really is".

"Knowing" what the advertised duration is, is a nice thing to know, but it really serves no purpose other than to confuse, again, IMO.
 
I've never tried them but You could use that cam and some Rhoads lifters to take away some low rpm duration. Some say they work. You did mention 2:23' now and higher gear with a overdrive later. Automatic. Worse case senario, you would have to put in a higher stall converter to help it work better. If you have a automatic of course. I guess the issue isn't a rough idle in drive.
 
I've never tried them but You could use that cam and some Rhoads lifters to take away some low rpm duration. Some say they work. You did mention 2:23' now and higher gear with a overdrive later. Automatic. Worse case senario, you would have to put in a higher stall converter to help it work better. If you have a automatic of course. I guess the issue isn't a rough idle in drive.

That's a mighty small cam for Rhoads lifters, IMO.
 

Which proves mah point even further. That cam is clearly very close to the OP's Hughes, yet the advertised is way different. It's all dependent on how they measured, where they measured from and how much "marketing" (LOL) is involved. WAY too many variables to put any stock in advertised duration.
 
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