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next, you have got to find out if you have power at the starter. im hoping 67 will explain. i jump it at the starter with a screwdriver at the solenoid
Car won't even crank...
- Thread starter 2XDusterGirl
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BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
What does "it sparks" mean. Do you see sparks? Where? You should never see sparks. Is "sparks" a euphanism for something else?
Read my 2nd post. At that point, you were hearing the solenoid on the starter give a solid clunk, but the starter wasn't turning the engine. Do you hear the motor straining or any teeth engaging on the torque converter?
Have you bought a multimeter yet? You need to measure the voltage drop from the starter's big lug to the body of starter as me and everyone keeps saying. Otherwise, you are flying blind. Can't see electrons (unless they spark).
Read my 2nd post. At that point, you were hearing the solenoid on the starter give a solid clunk, but the starter wasn't turning the engine. Do you hear the motor straining or any teeth engaging on the torque converter?
Have you bought a multimeter yet? You need to measure the voltage drop from the starter's big lug to the body of starter as me and everyone keeps saying. Otherwise, you are flying blind. Can't see electrons (unless they spark).
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Ok, if you are getting it solidly jumpered, and the starter does not "chatter", or "thunk in"
you are down to
not enough battery, IE too old, discharged, otherwise defective
Bad cable from the relay to the starter
Bad starter
(Remember that "new" parts do not mean "functional" parts)
Next, I'd take a screwdriver and short across the two starter posts right at the starter the same way you did the relay.
If it won't crank now, you are getting to the point of needing more test equipment. The reason is, it can be a "trick" to tell if
The battery is bad
or the starter is bad and drawing too much current, making it SEEM like the battery is down
The only real way to start down this road is to make sure the battery is charged, and find someone who can "load test" the battery with a "carbon pile" tester like this:
A person who knows how to use one of these can ALSO test the starter current draw with one of these, but of course you have to be able to get the car to the tester/ or the tester to the car.
So you could do "half" of it, which would be to charge the battery and haul the battery somewhere that can load test it for you.
Once you know the battery is good, we can work around that.
marksmopars
Well-Known Member
Mopar Starters have a well known issue with the main brass bolt that the positive cable connects to on the starter. The motor connects to power through contact to this bolt and over time the bolt will degrade to the point where it no longer makes consistent contact. Your symptoms sound very much like I have experienced while this condition was developing in my starters. Over the years I have replaced many of these bolts which is a little tricky, but not extremely difficult. Good luck!
SoulSurvivor
Well-Known Member
The next time your car won't start try this. With the car in park get out and rock the car forward and backward. If the car starts then your transmission linkage may be the culpret. Especially if you have replaced the neutral safety switch. I know this sounds dumb but does the car start always in park while on angle, like a driveway and sometimes not start on flat land?
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Exactly what I meant in my 2nd post when I said,
"Usually, with your symptoms, the solenoid contacts are pitted so they don't quite touch."
I was stranded at the Grand Canyon with exactly this problem (took apart my starter) and waited all day for a new starter.
cudajim
cudajim
Sounds like a bad starter or cables to the starter to me.
SheSaid
Mopar/Jeep Guy
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67Dart273
Well-Known Member
What have you done or checked since we last talked?
Do we understand that it will not crank if you jumper across the starter relay?
Have you / can you jumper across directly at the starter?
By the way, where are you located?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
You in Spokane??
OK that really simplifies the problem a bit.
We need to determine whether it's
starter
wiring from relay to starter
main cable to starter
bad battery connection
You need to devise a way to jumper right at the starter
You need to devise a way to clip a test light or meter right to the starter battery terminal (big stud on the starter)
Shoot me a PM, will ya?
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
When it does not start, tap the body of the starter with a small hammer. Then try again. If that works the starter needs work or replacing. The brushes are worn or hanging up.
scott mattingly
Well-Known Member
I realize this is an old thread, but I have the identical problem with my 74 Duster 360. Starts great when cold, but after a 5-10 minute ride, if you shut it off, nothing happens with the starter when you turn the key. Let it fully cool down for 35-35 minutes. All dash lights/acc come on like they are supposed to when you turn the key and the car is hot, there is just "silence" when you try to start it. Have done the following: New mini-starter w heat wrap(same thing happened with an older factory style starter); new optima battery, new starter relay. Battery is trunk mounted and I have checked positive cable from the trunk to the starter. THX for any ideas...
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
Do you know how to safely bypass starter relay with screwdriver? That will help test starter, battery and connections good.
Next is to check starter relay circuit for neutral safety ground and ignition start signal. Got a voltmeter?
Next is to check starter relay circuit for neutral safety ground and ignition start signal. Got a voltmeter?
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scott mattingly
Well-Known Member
->THX. I will try to by-pass the starter relay with a screwdriver tomorrow after the car is hot---not sure if I tried this yet or not. (I have done this when cold and it will start fine.)
--I have checked the ground connection on the relay w a voltmeter and it appears to stay at ground whether the key is turned to "on"(lights and acc energized) or "off"/removed. I have not monitored it while twisting key to start (I imagine it should stay at ground?) I did check the voltage drop from battery+ side of relay to the IGN wire when key was "on" and "Off". Both times the voltage = ~8.0V.
--I have also been doing some reading about cable sizes for trunk mounted batteries. I haven't measured mine/confirmed gage size but the + cable from the trunk looks to be the same gage as what is usually used for stock/under-hood locations. Is it possible that when hot, the battery simply can't supply enough current through that long cable to spin my high-torque starter? Battery is grounded in trunk to frame w a short cable of same gage/diameter.
Note:When the engine starts to cool off and the starter does begin to try and spin, it will initially chatter (like the solenoid is barely able to energize) and then after a few more minutes, it will crank slowly and start the car. Appreciate any help? -Scott
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
8V at relay big terminal suggests a problem. You call it drop, where was the meter (-) when doing measurement? If at engine ground, then that suggests battery, or connection to battery. When warm, both clamps and internal connectors in can expand, resulting in weak connections. Measure battery voltage when cold, engine off, at posts, not clamps, should be 12.5V to 12.7V. Measure again hot, same way.
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scott mattingly
Well-Known Member
THX. Voltage at battery is usually strong & better than 12V(but I Will double check it again both cold and Hot) Voltage at the regulator from the large +Battery post to either the ground tab of the regulator or the engine block is ~12.4V. I was measuring the 8V between the regulator +Battery post to the actual IGN wire that I pulled of the regulator. Any idea what that voltage should ideally be at each key position for that wire? I expect they might change when key is fully twisted ...I'll get a partner to help me check that.
NOTE: I also checked the gage of all the battery cables from the trunk and they are labelled with a 2 gage.
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
I don't understand about the 8V measurement. Picture of start relay and regulator?
Regulator +Battery post?
IGN should have battery voltage to ground with key ON.
The starter relay coil is energized by start circuit yellow wire from ignition switch start, and ground provided by NSS.
Regulator +Battery post?
IGN should have battery voltage to ground with key ON.
The starter relay coil is energized by start circuit yellow wire from ignition switch start, and ground provided by NSS.
scott mattingly
Well-Known Member
My error. 8V measured between the big bolt on the Ign Relay where the +battery lead connects and the small wire that connect to the IGN tab on the ignition relay that I pull off and push the voltmeter probes into. I am only checking this with the key either off OR turned on. I plan to get my wife to try and crank the car the see what this voltage is. Either way, this all seems to work fine when the car is cold.... So I am also trying to trouble shoot other voltage drop causes due to the trunk mounted battery...Might just connect a separate battery directly under-hood when hot since jumping the Trunk battery to add more power has no effect immediate effect on the hot starting problem, BUT....it does seem to reduce how long the engine needs to cool(10-15 mins vice 30-40) before I start to hear the solenoid to clicking and the starter begins cranking slowly....Might just be a bad idea to have the trunk mounted battery though I do like how it cleans up the engine bay.
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