Timing question

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DentalDart

DentalDart

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So today we started the car! Whoop whoop! Sounds good...and no leaks... when it's on. We ran into a little problem trying to time it and it left us scratching our heads.

Initially left the vacuum from the distributor hooked up on the carb oops my fault. When we took it off we couldn't get the timing mark to line up at TDC. Rotor and plug wire 1 both pointing in correct spot, towards piston 1 (we actually had to redo the wires on the cap 1 spot over to get this correctly set up). Cam was degreed properly with degree wheel. Balancer was checked on the crank and at that time the timing mark on balancer checked at the 0 on the timing tab of the correct passenger side timing chain cover.

My distributor seemed to be "floating" as well. I'd tighten it down and after that the rpms and timing mark on the balancer would change. We did this maybe 10 times and were left a little stunned on what the heck was going on.

I do have an electric choke but dont think that could have been the problem, but I tend to mess up the things most cant mess up lol.

Tomorrow we are going to use a piston stop and do a 3rd check of our workmanship of installing the camshaft. We are also going to install another distributor and see of that could be the problem, one without vacuum advance, since it only helps with mpgs and if I wanted those I'd drive my jeep that gets 30mpg lol.... I know I have an amazing person helping me and he would figure out the problem without me asking (but then everyone here would miss my stupid questions and all the fun things I break that no one else would be able to break) but maybe someone has run into this problem before as well and could offer what they did to alleviate the problem...

Heres a quick video of the car in action (after we realized my paint job was so good my battery ground wire wasnt grounding the car :p) and a couple of pictures. And there are 2 things I didnt paint that stick out like a sore thumb, other than the yellow wire... I guess I'll have to fix those next?!...


20200407_204753.jpg


20200407_204818.jpg
 
DentalDart said:
So today we started the car! Whoop whoop! Sounds good...and no leaks... when it's on. We ran into a little problem trying to time it and it left us scratching our heads.

Initially left the vacuum from the distributor hooked up on the carb oops my fault. When we took it off we couldn't get the timing mark to line up at TDC. Rotor and plug wire 1 both pointing in correct spot, towards piston 1 (we actually had to redo the wires on the cap 1 spot over to get this correctly set up). Cam was degreed properly with degree wheel. Balancer was checked on the crank and at that time the timing mark on balancer checked at the 0 on the timing tab of the correct passenger side timing chain cover.

My distributor seemed to be "floating" as well. I'd tighten it down and after that the rpms and timing mark on the balancer would change. We did this maybe 10 times and were left a little stunned on what the heck was going on.

I do have an electric choke but dont think that could have been the problem, but I tend to mess up the things most cant mess up lol.

Tomorrow we are going to use a piston stop and do a 3rd check of our workmanship of installing the camshaft. We are also going to install another distributor and see of that could be the problem, one without vacuum advance, since it only helps with mpgs and if I wanted those I'd drive my jeep that gets 30mpg lol.... I know I have an amazing person helping me and he would figure out the problem without me asking (but then everyone here would miss my stupid questions and all the fun things I break that no one else would be able to break) but maybe someone has run into this problem before as well and could offer what they did to alleviate the problem...

Heres a quick video of the car in action (after we realized my paint job was so good my battery ground wire wasnt grounding the car :p) and a couple of pictures. And there are 2 things I didnt paint that stick out like a sore thumb, other than the yellow wire... I guess I'll have to fix those next?!...


View attachment 1715503037

View attachment 1715503038
Click to expand...

Justin, how new is your balancer? They’re known to separate causing all sorts of problems. If your distributor is moving around like you say that might be the first place to start. I’d pull the distributor and see if that o ring is there and if it isn’t the correct one it won’t seat right, ask me how I know :/

Jake
 
Distributor timing will mechanically advance with rpm, normal.
Disconnect and plug vacuum advance hose..then get the carb off the choke... then adjust the distributor counter clockwise till you see about 12 degrees advance at the tab/balancer and tighten it 'for now'...then.. hook up the vacuum advance and check the timing with the rpms around 4000...and see how much the vacuum advance adds.
You really dont want more than 52 degrees total @4000 rpm. If it's more than 52 you can adjust it with a allen wrench through the canister nipple...
Remember ....the vac advance only cones into play at high vacuum 'cruise speeds' otherwise the timing will be on the mechanical advance under power/load.

Most sb dodge distributors have about 24 degrees mechanical advance , that's about 36 total if set at 12 btc degrees initial/idle.
 
Last edited:
xLURKxDOGx said:
Justin, how new is your balancer? They’re known to separate causing all sorts of problems. If your distributor is moving around like you say that might be the first place to start. I’d pull the distributor and see if that o ring is there and if it isn’t the correct one it won’t seat right, ask me how I know :/

Jake
Click to expand...

Have no clue how new it is but it was in good shape. The o-ring on the distributor is brand new, I put it on :)
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Distributor timing will mechanically advance with rpm, normal.
Disconnect and plug vacuum advance hose..then get the carb off the choke... then adjust the distributor counter clockwise till you see about 12 degrees advance at the tab/balancer and tighten it 'for now'...then.. hook up the vacuum advance and check the timing with the rpms around 4000...and see how much the vacuum advance adds.
You really dont want more than 52 degrees total @4000 rpm. If it's more than 52 you can adjust it with a allen wrench through the canister nipple...
Remember ....the vac advance only cones into play at high vacuum 'cruise speeds' otherwise the timing will be on the mechanical advance under power/load.
Click to expand...

Yes we disconnected and plugged the vac advance. Carb was off choke, but RPM's were up due to cam break in.

This is what we were trying to do with the timing though. Even now, with the rotor and the spark plug wire both pointing at cyl 1 the timing mark on the balancer is no longer at 0 it's at -5...

Maybe we were having trouble because we were trying to time it with the RPMs at about 2k during cam break in? Idk really, this thread is essentially for me to learn more when the smarter guy isnt here and I'm supposed to be studying for a final exam tomorrow morning. I just cant get the damn car off my mind though...

20200407_211529.jpg
 
DentalDart said:
Yes we disconnected and plugged the vac advance. Carb was off choke, but RPM's were up due to cam break in.

This is what we were trying to do with the timing though. Even now, with the rotor and the spark plug wire both pointing at cyl 1 the timing mark on the balancer is no longer at 0 it's at -5...

Maybe we were having trouble because we were trying to time it with the RPMs at about 2k during cam break in? Idk really, this thread is essentially for me to learn more when the smarter guy isnt here and I'm supposed to be studying for a final exam tomorrow morning. I just cant get the damn car off my mind though...

View attachment 1715503043
Click to expand...
What year is your 340? 68? Is the balancer correct for that timing cover or did you guys mark it?

Jake
 
Dont worry about where nmthe rotor is pointing towards, just as long as it's timed to no 1.

Fire it up, idleit to 800rpm and Twist the distributor c.c till the mark shows 12 advance, dont worry if it's not pointing at the front intake bolt/no.1 cyl anymore.
 
xLURKxDOGx said:
What year is your 340? 68? Is the balancer correct for that timing cover or did you guys mark it?

Jake
Click to expand...

68 engine. Correct balancer for engine??? Um... it bolts on... it has only 1 way to bolt on (due to 1 hole being offset, ask me how I know...)... and spins when the engine spins..... yup it's the correct one... :poke:

Honestly though your guess is probably better than mine. I'd assume it's the correct one as it's the one that was already on there when I got the car. There are 2 indentations (look like slices cut in it) that I'm assuming are timing marks on the blancer.
 
TrailBeast said:
This.
Set your initial timing at 12 at about 7-800 rpm (idle)
Great place to start.
Click to expand...

MOPAROFFICIAL said:
If that's the case, set it to 30 advance for break in IF @2000 rpm
Click to expand...

TrailBeast said:
Or that.:D
Problem is, it's very likely he's going to have too much all in using 12 initial anyway, but it's a start.
Click to expand...

See I knew someone here would catch where I messed up. I take all the blame because I'm the not so smart one of this operation.

@TrailBeast what do you mean to much all in using 12?
 
DentalDart said:
My timing tab only goes from -10 to +10 lol.... I do have a timing tape though, just havent put it on yet...
Click to expand...

And thats if it stays on.:D
I measure the degree marks on the damper then continue the markings up to 50 degrees.
Just what I get from your video it sounds like the motor is running rich on the idle and lazy on the timing.
JMO of course.

"All in timing" is your initial idle timing plus whatever the mechanical timing can advance to.
For example, factory distributors are designed to run basically at 0 btdc.
If you start a 12 degrees and then the mechanical adds 30 more, then your "All In" timing is 42 degrees which is way too much or a pre ignition problem exists.
These numbers are just an example.

Set your idle at 12 for now.
Disconnect and plug your vacuum to the distributor.
Then use your light and see where it advances to at 2-3k.
That's where the painted on marks on the damper or the timing tape come in.:D
 
Clean the damper of all the paint and gunk and then wipe it down with alcohol or similar. Then stick on the timing tape. I have to install one tomorrow and it won’t come off. They are a lifesaver if your damper isn’t marked.
 
TrailBeast said:
And thats if it stays on.:D
I measure the degree marks on the damper then continue the markings up to 50 degrees.
Just what I get from your video it sounds like the motor is running rich on the idle and lazy on the timing.
JMO of course.

"All in timing" is your initial idle timing plus whatever the mechanical timing can advance to.
For example, factory distributors are designed to run basically at 0 btdc.
If you start a 12 degrees and then the mechanical adds 30 more, then your "All In" timing is 42 degrees which is way too much or a pre ignition problem exists.
These numbers are just an example.

Set your idle at 12 for now.
Disconnect and plug your vacuum to the distributor.
Then use your light and see where it advances to at 2-3k.
That's where the painted on marks on the damper or the timing tape come in.:D
Click to expand...

Ok I understand your all in comment now.

Yes we were trying to have the timing line on the dampener hit at 0 btdc but if using the logic of having my rpms at 2k for break in my timing should be around the 30...

My video was recorded maybe 20 seconds after we turned the engine over for the first time and hadn't messed with anything yet. But it at least gives everyone first look at the glory of my work :D i know i know.. there are some much nicer bays here on FABO but I'm stoked for how it turned out on 30 bucks in spray paint, a little more for valve covers and air cover, then a **** ton of grease scraping lol.

I'll do my best to get that timing tape to stay. Most of the comments I read for installing the tape were to- clean really really well, stick dampener on, then clear enamel spray paint over the tape to hold it on.
 
yellow rose said:
Clean the damper of all the paint and gunk and then wipe it down with alcohol or similar. Then stick on the timing tape. I have to install one tomorrow and it won’t come off. They are a lifesaver if your damper isn’t marked.
Click to expand...

The dampener is super clean... besides the new fresh paint on it :). Sucks to scrape off all that pretty new paint... haha. But a timing tape would be nice. Maybe I should have bought a fancy black one with timing marks on it...
 
DentalDart said:
68 engine. Correct balancer for engine??? Um... it bolts on... it has only 1 way to bolt on (due to 1 hole being offset, ask me how I know...)... and spins when the engine spins..... yup it's the correct one... :poke:

Honestly though your guess is probably better than mine. I'd assume it's the correct one as it's the one that was already on there when I got the car. There are 2 indentations (look like slices cut in it) that I'm assuming are timing marks on the blancer.
Click to expand...

I’m confused by your answer here. You also say in the second paragraph of your first post that the “balancer was checked on the crank”. Are you assuming the indentations are correct, or did you index the pulley at TDC when you were building the motor? Jake’s right, pulleys are known to separate.

I found my pulley marks off 7* when checking it, reindexed it using the tape.
 
DentalDart said:
Ok I understand your all in comment now.

Yes we were trying to have the timing line on the dampener hit at 0 btdc but if using the logic of having my rpms at 2k for break in my timing should be around the 30...

My video was recorded maybe 20 seconds after we turned the engine over for the first time and hadn't messed with anything yet. But it at least gives everyone first look at the glory of my work :D i know i know.. there are some much nicer bays here on FABO but I'm stoked for how it turned out on 30 bucks in spray paint, a little more for valve covers and air cover, then a **** ton of grease scraping lol.

I'll do my best to get that timing tape to stay. Most of the comments I read for installing the tape were to- clean really really well, stick dampener on, then clear enamel spray paint over the tape to hold it on.
Click to expand...

I totally understand about just getting it fired up, and I think you are doing a great job.
You'll get to the details as you go, and I think because a lot of us are and have been car guys for some time we tend to overload someone just getting into it.
You have good sense, and you comprehend when something is explained.
You're even catching some things that are not quite right on your own.
"That ain't hay" as they say.:D

clifftt said:
I’m confused by your answer here. You also say in the second paragraph of your first post that the “balancer was checked on the crank”. Are you assuming the indentations are correct, or did you index the pulley at TDC when you were building the motor? Jake’s right, pulleys are known to separate.

I found my pulley marks off 7* when checking it, reindexed it using the tape.
Click to expand...

Pulleys separate?
Say it isn't so.
Mine came apart a couple of days ago and I'm still waiting for the new one to get here.:D
 
clifftt said:
I’m confused by your answer here. You also say in the second paragraph of your first post that the “balancer was checked on the crank”. Are you assuming the indentations are correct, or did you index the pulley at TDC when you were building the motor? Jake’s right, pulleys are known to separate.

I found my pulley marks off 7* when checking it, reindexed it using the tape.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to clarify.

Once the cam was installed and properly degreed with degree wheel. We set the engine to piston 1 TDC, then added on the new timing cover, then the distributor with rotor pointing to cyl 1 tdc. After that was all on we put on the balancer to see if the indentation on the balancer was correctly aligned with the 0 on the timing tab (which it was) of the new correct side timing chain cover (one with factory tab on the passenger side).

Essentially this picture with to make sure my balancer was correctly marked for the timing chain cover.

Ah hah! I found a problem- right now according to my previous picture posted cyl 1 is not at TDC, it is what 90 degrees off or something like that, the mark with the red line should be at 0 for TDC.

View attachment 1715503090

20200407_230753.jpg


20200327_171715.jpg


20200327_171715.jpg
 
DentalDart said:
Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to clarify.

Once the cam was installed and properly degreed with degree wheel. We set the engine to piston 1 TDC, then added on the new timing cover, then the distributor with rotor pointing to cyl 1 tdc. After that was all on we put on the balancer to see if the indentation on the balancer was correctly aligned with the 0 on the timing tab (which it was) of the new correct side timing chain cover (one with factory tab on the passenger side).

Essentially this picture with to make sure my balancer was correctly marked for the timing chain cover.

Ah hah! I found a problem- right now according to my previous picture posted cyl 1 is not at TDC, it is what 90 degrees off or something like that

View attachment 1715503090
Click to expand...

It looks like the balancer might be marked for both left or right side of the chain cover.
The passenger side mark looks like it's where it should be in relation to the degree scale on the cover.

In that position with the piston at tdc the keyway on the crank for the balancer should be at about 1 o clock position.
If it is, everything is probably fine.
Edit: since the balancer is already installed now don't take the bolt out to check the keyway.
 
TrailBeast said:
It looks like the balancer might be marked for both left or right side of the chain cover.
The passenger side mark looks like it's where it should be in relation to the degree scale on the cover.

In that position with the piston at tdc the keyway on the crank for the balancer should be at about 1 o clock position.
If it is, everything is probably fine.
Edit: since the balancer is already installed now don't take the bolt out to check the keyway.
Click to expand...

It is at the 1 o clock position roughly with piston 1 at tdc :thumbsup: luckily I take lots of pictures right?

20200327_225416.jpg
 
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